Breeder not doing Fanconi testing?? Do I just walk away?

[Kipawa]

Here's a comment from someone on this forum who is not a breeder, but is someone who wants one of these darling dogs in the future. I would not give that breeder the time of day. When I get my basenji, I want it to be from someone who really cares about the breed itself - promoting good health and good standards within the breed. I want my puppy to be from someone who not only does numerous tests, but who also breeds for quality and great disposition. I want to know that if I have any concerns once I get my puppy home that the breeder is going to be there for me when I need some advice as my basenji grows up. Please don't give any thought to a breeder who does any less than this. I know I won't.

[Mango]

The whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
All I have to say is, THANK GOODNESS I RESEARCHED /FIRST/ AND KNEW WHAT TO ASK!

Sinbaje - that's the one. I was initally pretty impressed, since, as you say, they're pretty active and successful… but yeah. Just repulsive.

[tanza]

@Mango:

The whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
All I have to say is, THANK GOODNESS I RESEARCHED /FIRST/ AND KNEW WHAT TO ASK!

Sinbaje - that's the one. I was initally pretty impressed, since, as you say, they're pretty active and successful… but yeah. Just repulsive.

And you are to be commended for reseaching first, learning what questions to ask… and not just to settle on the first puppy breeder you find... and/or believe what you hear or read.

There are many breeders that claim to be responsible, but turn out to be not so... responsible...

[khanis]

Like I mentioned previously, you are welcome to contact me off the boards and I will get you contact information for Bob (in Drumheller).
They may possible have one of the pups left from the litter this fall. They are just 12 wks old and came from a Clear x Carrier breeding.

I have no clue who this person is, but would like to know, as I am sure they will approach Bob with his dogs when they start the pups in the show ring this summer. Linda, could you E me that info? Thanks!

[Mango]

Sorry, Khanis, miscommunication, I thought for some reason you wanted me to leave my e-mail address in the my introduction board but I will for sure contact you directly off the boards.
I'll also e-mail you the name of the breeder in question.
Thanks.

[khanis]

So I looked at her three litters.
Frankly, I don't have an issue with 3 litters.
I had two here, but I am home more than most and I have 2 kids helping with the dogs.. and I only have 5 dogs aside from having puppies.

What I have an issue with is the breedings.
First, not a single sire/dam is Fanconi Tested.

In the litter she posted that was whelped on 10-2-09…
the dam's dam produced Fanconi, and there fore she could test as a carrier.
In the 2nd litter, the sire has a sire that is AT LEAST a carrier, as he has sired an affected.
In the third litter, the dam is a littermate to the dam of the 1st litter.. so she could be at least a carrier also.

There is AT LEAST one Shamaron Fanconi Affected basenji. "Kofi" Shamaron's Kofi Utundu lives with the folks that bought a bitch from me.
Those dogs are all closely related... so this reeks of poor breeding practices.
BTW....
He tested that boy at MY request... since he was still intact and he was neutered within a month of getting the AFS results.
Bob was very responsible, as he didn't want to perpetuate any issues or have any owners go through what he's gone through in the past.

I didn't know anything about this lady before, now all I can say is that she is beyond irresponsible. She is purposely breeding dogs that could have questionable test results.
INCREDIBLY IRRESPONSIBLE in my own opinion.
My guess is that she has never lived with an AFS...
that is what I see in her breeding...

SAD.
Not a breeder worth considering, for a companion, or anything else for that matter.

[Maya]

Well done for walking away from this breeder.

I cannot think of any valid reason for not using the health tests available, i can only imagine it is to save money. Though, even being from the UK and having to send the swabs to America for testing, the fanconi tests still came in hundreds of pounds less than the xray/DNA tests i have to do on my labs, so it is a cheap test really!

As dog breeders we are lucky to have these tests available to use to ensure that we are not producing pups with a likelihood of developing these awful diseases, it makes me angry when people care more about profit than their pups. One person in my other breed pugs refuses to hemivertebra test her stud dog as it is "not in her lines"… Now, owning a pug with HV i can see that this dog has all the subtle signs of having it himself so i suspect the reason she is not testing him (or admitting to have had him tested positive) is because she will be losing her ?500 a time stud fee... Disgusting really. So the excuse "my dogs dont have it" usually makes me more suspicious of a breeder.

[Basenjimamma]

Mango..I commend you for doing your research BEFORE getting attached to a puppy or even purchasing a dog..many, including myself, does it the other way around…

Good luck in finding that perfect little bundle..I know you will be very happy when you do.

[khanis]

@Maya:

So the excuse "my dogs dont have it" usually makes me more suspicious of a breeder.

As I noted on the breedings…
the sire and dams of those litters HAVE produced Fanconi, therefore she has carriers in the midst and DOES have the mutant gene there.

There are breeders that I know of that state that "they tested as p. Fanconi Clear, as we would have expected" yet they are breeding IND and CAR basenjis.
The CAR dogs carry the mutant gene and we are told to treat the IND dogs as if they carry the gene as well [until the direct test is established, we can not assume otherwise].
This type of outward thinking is ludicrous.

Unless one's kennel of basenjis are ALL Fanconi Clear they carry the mutant gene, and can produce it.

[lvoss]

@khanis:

Unless one's kennel of basenjis are ALL Fanconi Clear they carry the mutant gene, and can produce it.

And even if the whole kennel is Probably Clear the breeder should still be testing every animal prior to breeding because it is a linked marker test and there is no such thing as Clear By Parentage with Linked Marker Tests.

[Patty]

Ivoss - this is one of the questions I had about testing. I do know of breeders here who don't bother to test puppies from parents with Probably Clear results and wondered why. Possibly they are intending to do so if/when they breed - I just don't know.

[lvoss]

I don't think that there is the urgency to test puppies from two Probably Clear parents so people tend to wait longer. I know alot of people are hoping the direct gene test will be out sometime soon so then they can just use that instead of the marker test.

The really important thing is that the test be done BEFORE they breed the animal. There are people who are breeding then testing because they figure the dog is "clear by parentage" and that is bad practice because if there was an error or mutation somewhere they will have compounded the issue by producing offspring.

[Patty]

Thank you Ivoss. Lets hope that the breeders I know of in the UK will indeed test before breeding but of course if they don't do so its difficult to persuade them.

[khanis]

There isn't an urgency to test from two Clear parents.
I will test those I am sending overseas, but only because it can be done much quicker via mail in the US.

For all my other clear pups, the owners are happy to test them at any time… I will test what I keep prior to any thoughts of breeding, as I want the reassurance that the test is testing as it should.

I don't have any doubts, as there have only been two AFS that tested as Carriers, and it had nothing to do with the test.. it was their DNA being all back a$$wards. I know they were retested and they still came out the same way... as Carriers.

[moetmum]

Most of the breeders in the UK are testing, even breeders who are not totally convinced are testing, they don't have much choice if we stick together and only allow tested b's to use our stock, the ones who don't are very much in the minority and usually using their own dogs. I don't envy them if they produce affected because they will have a lot of explaining to do to the owners of these b's.

I agree about clear by parentage, you cannot claim your dog is of any status unless it is tested. There is always room for human error and it is good to be testing the test as it were.

[Maya]

@moetmum:

Most of the breeders in the UK are testing, even breeders who are not totally convinced are testing, they don't have much choice if we stick together and only allow tested b's to use our stock, the ones who don't are very much in the minority and usually using their own dogs. I don't envy them if they produce affected because they will have a lot of explaining to do to the owners of these b's.

I agree about clear by parentage, you cannot claim your dog is of any status unless it is tested. There is always room for human error and it is good to be testing the test as it were.

You have to wonder where breeders would stand legally if they dont test knowing that there is an issue in the breed and a pup they produce develops fanconi..

I have heard of puppy owners suing labrador breeders who have not tested and actually winning. So its certainly another thing to think about.

[sharronhurlbut]

I wish owners could sue the USDA who licenses these puppymills.

[tanza]

@sharronhurlbut:

I wish owners could sue the USDA who licenses these puppymills.

Of course as we all know, it is not just Puppymills…. and in this case it is a person passing themselves off as a reputable breeder...NOT

[Patty]

Jess - I spoke to Geoff Sampson at Crufts and the KC has no plans to include Fanconi testing as a noted health issue. They don't normally take action until an actual gene is isolated as there is no telling whether it is for a disease or merely a tendency to the disease (as some genes for a tendency to cancer, for example).

Therefore there can be no legal comeback as such as there are no guarantees by indication on the pedigree. Of course it would always depend on the sale contract and how it is worded.

Incidentally, Geoff also said that he thought the incidence of Fanconi Syndrome is low in the UK.

However as Moetmum says most breeders here in the UK are testing whatever they believe. Peer pressure is wonderful in that way!

I think any caring breeder would be devastated if a pup they bred developed any serious illness whoever they sold it to.

[saba]

As someone who is very new to the breed, I CANNOT understand why people who are breeding, (i.e. the so called 'responsible' breeders, worldwide…) wont at least test for Fanconi...

Here in Australia, testing for Fanconi is starting to filter through, but not as quickly as it should be. I think, (and this is completely MY own ideas), we have a false sense of security down here. As far as I am aware there have only been a couple of cases of Affecteds, so far. We are having a few more Carriers crop up, but the testing is only being done with a touch of peer pressure I believe... Even here in Aus, it really isnt a lot of money at all to have the test done. I think it was roughly $120 Australian dollars each, to get my 2 done, (Vanda ill be done later this year). We are in a fantastic situation with this disease. We can COMPLETELY erradiate this awful disease by doing a simple non invasive test on our dogs. Why, oh why, wont breeders who truely care about the breed, test their dogs, prior to breeding them ??? I just dont get it... Just from my enquiries around Aus, I have heard all the reasons under the sun about why people AREN'T testing, and it mostly comes down to, "I know my lines and all my dogs live long and healthy lives, so I dont need to do it. I dont think its in my lines" As has been said by so many, HOW DO YOU KNOW, IF YOU DONT TEST ??? (Need a head hitting a brick wall, emoticon here !!!)

I think its pretty safe to say, over here we dont have many, if any B's in PF or BYB foul establishments. I think at this stage, here in Aus, the B is still a very well guarded secret ;);). I just hope it stays this way...

Sorry Ive got on my high horse a bit here, so my apologies to the OP... Please run really fast from this ' money-making kennel' :):).