Why does Tayda do this? Marking? Dominance?

[Tayda_Lenny]

So in the past week or so Tayda has peed indoors RIGHT in front of me…

1. Last week when we were in NJ at the hotel w/ Lenny and family. All the dogs were sniffing around each other and Tayda came over to me. She was sitting next to me on the floor and then she got up and walked away and she had peed right next to me.

2. Last night I was getting ready to go out, She peed right in the hallway at the top of the stairs. This one I think may have been me not recognizing her cue to go outside - I vaguely remember her going downstairs and then coming back up. She may have gone downstairs to try to go outside and I didn't pick up on it.

3. Just now, a friend stopped by, we were standing in the kitchen talking and all of a sudden my friend says "a dog just peed all around my foot". ugh. Tayda had peed right next to my friend. (Tayda has met this friend before, and she does have a dog that Tayda has also been around)

Now, I don't think this is a UTI because the amount of pee is a LOT. I am pretty used to looking for UTI signals (frequent small amounts)... and I don't think this is it.

So, I'm curious as to what you guys think about this. Is she trying to get attention? Anxious because of visitors (human and canine)? Marking?

and - how do i stop it?

[Kananga]

When Kananga had a UTI, it wasn't in frequent small amounts. He'd empty his bladder.

I guess to be on the safe side, it wouldn't hurt to have a urinalysis done. If that comes up clear then you can look at something behavioral. Just a thought.

[lvoss]

The first and the third incident could have been a combination of excitement and her having a harder time holding it and the second incident sounds like you already have an idea about why it happened. Spayed bitches can develop incontinence as they lose muscle tone. Combined with the frequent UTIs it could be causing what you are seeing. Rule out a current UTI and then ask your vet about spay incontinence.

My mom's lab mix usually had her accidents in her sleep but sometimes when she got excited about something when she was older she would have an accident. Basically, the situation which usually cause puppies to pee would be situations where she may have had an accident.

[Tayda_Lenny]

@Kananga:

When Kananga had a UTI, it wasn't in frequent small amounts. He'd empty his bladder.

I guess to be on the safe side, it wouldn't hurt to have a urinalysis done. If that comes up clear then you can look at something behavioral. Just a thought.

Since she has Fanconi her urinanalysis has never shown UTI even if I was sure she had one - I do have meds that I could give her but seeing as these events have occurred when there were other things going on, I really think it is behavior related. I will keep an eye on her though for other UTI symptoms…..

[Tayda_Lenny]

@lvoss:

The first and the third incident could have been a combination of excitement and her having a harder time holding it and the second incident sounds like you already have an idea about why it happened. Spayed bitches can develop incontinence as they lose muscle tone. Combined with the frequent UTIs it could be causing what you are seeing. Rule out a current UTI and then ask your vet about spay incontinence.

My mom's lab mix usually had her accidents in her sleep but sometimes when she got excited about something when she was older she would have an accident. Basically, the situation which usually cause puppies to pee would be situations where she may have had an accident.

She is able to still hold it for 8 hours in the crate while I am at work. Usually during the night she gets up wanting to be let out, but she is nice enough to wake me - she doesn't have accidents during the night. And this morning she had been out to pee (and i saw her pee) about 2 hours before she peed inside on the floor. Maybe it was just the excitement? If it was the excitement, thats one thing, but if it was some kind of dominance or marking on her part, I'd want to see what kind of behavioral modification I can do with her. She is 7 now…. and has been spayed since she was 2.5 years old.

[Kananga]

It very well could be excitement. I have seen Kananga have accidents on the way outside (when I take him out to go) after he had been running around with people I've had over. He never does this when it's just a normal evening.

I try to take him out more frequently when he's around guests. That seems to work with me.

[tanza]

I don't think that it is dominance…. I would guess more of excitement and problems holding her urine... due to the fact that she has Fanconi... I would have to guess that she is having a harder time controlling her bladder... Just my opinion

[AJs Human]

If she seems to be drinking more water than normal, perhaps have her blood sugar levels checked. She may be showing signs of diabetes. I don't know a lot about Fanconi, but from what I have seen and heard, it affects the metabolic systems of the dog.

My medical experience is in humans, and I do know that often, the first sign of Diabetes in humans is what we call polydipsia/polyuria…excessive drinking and peeing.

Ms. Pat? What do you think?

Wish you the best.

[Tayda_Lenny]

Yeah, polyuria/polydipsia are also symptoms of Fanconi - I watch her bloodwork like a hawk - been taking her in every three months for a complete blood chemistry and venous blood gas panel since she was diagnosed last year.

so she definitely drinks and pees more…. so far she hasn't had any incontinence issues, even after 8 hours - that's why I think she is doing it on purpose, or it's the excitement that brings on the incontinence.

makes me sad... my poor baby.

[Rita Jean]

Michelle, Tayda and Lenny could be health or could be your correct on purpose every now and again when Jaycee wants to do something like walk right now and we cannot she takes her little self to kitchen and we go pee or poop. My husband still says it's the only dog he has every since that gets even when they choose to.

Rita Jean

[Quercus]

If she has a UTI it may only take mild excitement to cause an accident. I don't think it is marking, per se…but it could be...but it wouldn't be dominance in the sense that she was trying to let the humans know that she was in charge...more like, I really like this person, and I would like to keep my special relationship/time with her, and let the other dogs know about it.

Personally, I would treat it as a medical issue. And during medical treatment, for the most part ignore it, and see if it improves in a month or so. It could just be a phase, particularly if there are any changes or excitement in the household. If she is doing it to get attention (probably not, in a tidy basenji) making a fuss about it will not make the behavior go away.

[lvoss]

@Tayda_Lenny:

so she definitely drinks and pees more…. so far she hasn't had any incontinence issues, even after 8 hours - that's why I think she is doing it on purpose, or it's the excitement that brings on the incontinence.
QUOTE]

Spay incontinence doesn't usually effect the length of time a dog can hold it. It is more situational like how some women pee a little when they sneeze. It is that the muscle tone of the sphincter is not as good as it used to be so in some situations they will pee even though they do not mean to. My husband's best friend's Ridgeback had to be put in the backyard when people were coming over because she would pee with excitement when they arrived. She was able to hold her urine all day and through the night but the excitement of people coming over was enough that she just couldn't control it. It started as a very occasional thing when she was young and then in old age was pretty much every time someone came over.

So I just wouldn't rule out that this is a behavior she just can't help.

[AJs Human]

If she hasn't done this before, has always been fastidious about her continence and has been in exciting situations and not had a problem, I would be looking at something going on medically.

The thing about medical incontinence is it isn't always consistent. I've noticed, even with myself, sometimes I can hold it all day, sometimes I have to pull over for emergencies several times in a day. She's a middle-aged gal like me and I'm very healthy for my age. Her bladder muscle may not be as strong as it once was and there may be something else going on, perhaps to do with her Fanconi, perhaps something else.

You are on top of the Fanconi…She's been consistently good until very recently....now she has accidents inside the house. I get the idea she's trying to get to the door, but not quite getting outside. I'm not convinced this is behavioral. I'd say give her the benefit of the doubt and have her checked for perhaps something else. (UTI, elevated blood sugar, thyroid, etc.)

Until then, try to keep her environment secure and calm. If it settles down, then maybe it is behavioral and you'll have to make adjustments to keep her on a level emotional platform. If she still has accidents, dig a little deeper medically.

Question: Does she act like she's ashamed or disappointed in herself? I've had one single incident with AJ...he had a case of the runs and went on a newspaper that I threw down, but immediately acted like he was sorry for it. (We were rolling down the road and there was nowhere to pull off.) If she behaves like this, then she doesn't mean it. If she acts like "So, there!" then it is probably behavioral.

I hope I've helped a little. Good luck with it.

[tanza]

AJ's Human…
It would be very, very rare (in fact I have never heard of it..) that a Basenji with Fanconi would have high blood sugar... but certainly related to Fanconi.. again IMO.... It is very common for a Basenji with Fanconi to have periods or constant problems with holding urine....

I still would hold to the idea that this has nothing to do with dominance.. but a medical issue... and it may be that you need to get her out more... especially when having visitors...

[AJs Human]

Ms. Pat:

I don't know a lot about Fanconi, but is it possible for a Fanconi dog to be also diabetic? I'm not familiar with the process and you seem so knowledgeable. Thanks.

[Tayda_Lenny]

Thanks everyone for your input! I'll be taking Tayda to the vet soon for her Fanconi bloodwork so we'll see what that brings! It is something that has happened only recently, but I also don't normally have visitors and the family reunion w/ Lennys family was also a special thing.

Fanconi and diabetes seem like they are mutually exclusive diagnoses - in that a dog with:

• Glucose in the urine and normal or low blood sugar = Fanconi
• Glucose in the urine and high blood sugar = Diabetes

So since a dog can't have low/normal AND high blood sugar at the same time… not sure how they could have both Fanconi and Diabetes.

Now that I think about it, this is not a completely new issue. A couple of times I took Tayda to friends houses back in Michigan (2+ years ago) she did pee in their houses - I thought it was a marking thing but maybe it was related to the excitement. hmmm...

At any rate - I will keep an eye on her and let y'all know what happens w/ her Fanconi checkup! The last time she got bloodwork done, Dr. Gonto said that her numbers looked perfect. And it seems Tayda and I have come to an agreement that she will eat what I feed her and not spit out the pills. Hopefully all is still well!

[AJs Human]

Thank you for that. I have a little better understanding now. I've never dealt with Fanconi before. With that information, it would seem a little odd to have two exclusive and opposite sugar levels at the same time.

I hope everything works out for you.

[tanza]

@AJs:

Thank you for that. I have a little better understanding now. I've never dealt with Fanconi before. With that information, it would seem a little odd to have two exclusive and opposite sugar levels at the same time.

I hope everything works out for you.

There is lots of good information on Fanconi at www.basenjihealth.org Always good to know about Basenji Afflictions…

[AJs Human]

Thank you, Ms. Pat. I will look at that.