Question on Submissive Wetting?

[saralars]

I searched the Forums and figured out that Basenjis must not have this problem. I have a situation… After the recent PM bust in Snohomish and Skagit Countys, our young neighbors aquired a pup from rescue. It is 1/2 doxie 1/2 taco dog. I am better with larger dogs so not sure I would have any luck here... the situation is that she is now 6 months old and still not house trained and she piddles went you bend over her to pick her up. I am considering taking the dog for approx. 3 to 4 weeks and working with it. I am home full time and have a consistent schedule. I also don't like failing. I am confident that I can teach basic obedience and house break the dog (I hope) but not sure how to handle the peeing when you approach her. My thought is to not allow anyone to approach her and just teach her to come and see how that goes. What do you think? We are getting our B on 6/15 so I would want the other pup out by then! The dog's family is in the mind set now to sell the little girl for 100.00 because they can't deal with her. Also, They are gone all day for 9 hours M - F and have one little girl who is 8 yr. old who doesn't listen to adults so this shows you the family's training ability. Dog is in crate all day long! Maybe they should sell it, thoughts on if I should attempt this and how?

[tanza]

The peeing when approached would be consider submissive peeing, I believe… or fear.. and coming from a puppy mill situation may never be able to be corrected..... And all that you have described... sounds to me like she would be better off with a family that can and will put the time necessary into working with a puppy mill rescue.... And being in a crate for a good part of the day is not that bad, provided she is with the family the rest of the time... and as far as house training, Toy Breeds are the hardest to house train.. IMO.. and also add in a puppy mill dog, she is most likely used to peeing whenever/where ever....

[saralars]

Thanks. I have heard that before about toy breeds and house training… Okay, I think that I will hold my horses on offering to help with training and pray that she is placed in a home that can help her.

[ComicDom1]

@saralars:

I searched the Forums and figured out that Basenjis must not have this problem. I have a situation… After the recent PM bust in Snohomish and Skagit Countys, our young neighbors aquired a pup from rescue. It is 1/2 doxie 1/2 taco dog. I am better with larger dogs so not sure I would have any luck here... the situation is that she is now 6 months old and still not house trained and she piddles went you bend over her to pick her up. I am considering taking the dog for approx. 3 to 4 weeks and working with it. I am home full time and have a consistent schedule. I also don't like failing. I am confident that I can teach basic obedience and house break the dog (I hope) but not sure how to handle the peeing when you approach her. My thought is to not allow anyone to approach her and just teach her to come and see how that goes. What do you think? We are getting our B on 6/15 so I would want the other pup out by then! The dog's family is in the mind set now to sell the little girl for 100.00 because they can't deal with her. Also, They are gone all day for 9 hours M - F and have one little girl who is 8 yr. old who doesn't listen to adults so this shows you the family's training ability. Dog is in crate all day long! Maybe they should sell it, thoughts on if I should attempt this and how?

What in the world is a "Taco Dog?" Do you mean a Chihuahua? Please clarify is this is what you mean!

In my opinion isolation is not the way to train or teach. A dog is going to be exposed to many different situations in it's life and has to learn to adapt or tolerate them up to a point. Miranda and I agree that if the dog pees every time someone approaches it then train it where it is approached by many people. Sooner or later the dog will run out of pee. If you do this in a place like a park where the pee can easily be cleaned up or does not matter, you are likely to solve your problem. Pet smart is a good place to go but you have to clean up the pee. If you walk the dog very well prior to taking it in, your issues should be minimal. You should also treat the dog every time you have a successful greeting without pee. Either the dog is in fear, or just gets over excited and pees. I suspect that if this dog is in a crate for extended periods of time that this is not submissive behavior. The submissive behavior is most likely the fear of being punished but since we really do not know what has happened to this dog we can only make assumptions.

It is also my opinion that people/owners blame animals when they lack the patience and love that it takes to help an animal learn what is expected. Although there are expections, In my experience I have found many times where its the owner that creates the problem and not the dog.

You do not like failing, but that is about you and not about the dog and should never projected on the dog. Failing only means you need explore a different method. Not all dogs respond the same. Not all people respond the same.

I know that even though I am starting to get involved training my Basenji for Agility. I also know that even if I work with him well and he ends up trained well that there is a possibility that it just might not be for him or me. The same goes for coursing.

I am sorry but Dogs are not people and should not be treated or expected to be treated as such. They are not Barbie and Ken Dolls although people play Dress up with them. They are not some toy that should be thrown away just because the person that bought them or has acquired them no long has an interest in them or decide they are too much trouble to deal with. People who own dogs should not expect them to be self sufficient and take complete care of themselves. If this is the case then that dog was better off somewhere else.

We should not have to license Dogs. People should have to get a "Dog License " that requires education and a test to prove some level of competency and responsibility before they are ever allowed to be considered for dog ownership.

I really wish if people feel that need something to make a fashion statement that they would just skip dogs and buy something else.

I am going to get some disagreement here based on my stated opinions, but that is to be expected.

Jason

[BDawg]

Jason,

I agree with a lot that you say. It's unfortunate that the family isn't interested in working to gain understanding and trust with the dog they adopted. A lot of the doxies I know have excitement piddles– maybe they're just piddlers. BUT... Being a puppy mill rescue, who knows if it's had ANY house training. You can't expect him to know something he's never been taught.

I agree that people should have a license to be owners-- that shows some sort of education, training, and ability to care (financial, physical, spacial, mental, etc). Sometimes I wish it could be so for having human children as well.

It's just not the dog's fault.

[dcmclcm4]

I do not know what kind of bust the dog was in but she probably had little or no socialization with humans. Did she have much socialization at the rescue? Was this a private rescue or a city/county shelter? If from a city/county shelter, I believe that many of these types of rescues are adopted out too quickly and many adopters do not really know what problems they will have with the dog. If a private rescue, I would contact it and see how long she lived there and how much socialization she received.

She needs socialization but it needs to be done slowly. I would not bend over her. I would just let her get used to you. Many of these types of rescues will just go to a corner and watch everything that is going on, scared, but the dog will learn this way. Is she this way? Is she living with another dog? If not, this is part of the problem as she does not know how to be a house dog and she will need to learn from another dog in the house.

You have to remember that this dog has to learn everything, her name, tolerate a collar, learn to walk on a leash, live in a house, get used to certain noises, even drink from a water bowl if she always drank from a lixit type bottle.

I would not recommend this type of rescue to go to a house with children unless they were older and would not bother the dog while it is being socialized/house trained.

Legally, the owners are not allowed to sell the dog and it needs to be turned back over to the rescue. If they do sell her, I would report her to the rescue group.

Working with these types of dogs can be a rewarding experience, please consider helping this dog.

Who are you getting your B from?

Jennifer

[saralars]

Thanks Jennifer. This dog is very excited to see all people and other dogs and the little girl brings her over and pops her in our front door while she goes off and plays with my kids. She was in a foster home and she has been with this young family for almost 3 months now. She loves my GSD and cats. She wolfs food down like I have never seen before and I would worm her first thing to rule that out. I can't really remember when that whole PM thing went down but I am guessing around December. So, the fact that she loves people and dogs so much is really good I take it. We got her a collar and ID tag because they keep losing her in the neighborhood. They have no fence and no other pets. Most of my house is hardwood and tile, I could pull up the rugs so I wouldn't be so bothered by the mess. Maybe I should give this a try for her sake… Maybe I should get one of those metal puppy pens too. I really do have a problem with failing and I usually don't take things on unless I am 99% sure I can do it and do it well. I will think this over some more and talk to the owners about the possibility of her staying here for 3 to 4 weeks. What do you think about that? Could that be enough time to help her? OUR B puppy is 4 weeks old today! He is from Khani's and we will pick him up in 4 - 5 weeks! Very excited about this. Bryan from Jumoke's is having a training class and I will start class this Thursday w/o dog! By the way I am sorry if I offended anyone with the name Taco Dog. Yes, she is 1/2 Chihuahua and half Oscar Myer!

[dcmclcm4]

I would take her to the vet and have a urine test done and make sure she does not have a urinary tract infection or urinary crystals. I should have mentioned this sooner because it could be a health problem and not a training problem!

[ComicDom1]

@saralars:

I searched the Forums and figured out that Basenjis must not have this problem. I have a situation… After the recent PM bust in Snohomish and Skagit Countys, our young neighbors aquired a pup from rescue. It is 1/2 doxie 1/2 taco dog. I am better with larger dogs so not sure I would have any luck here... the situation is that she is now 6 months old and still not house trained and she piddles went you bend over her to pick her up. I am considering taking the dog for approx. 3 to 4 weeks and working with it. I am home full time and have a consistent schedule. I also don't like failing. I am confident that I can teach basic obedience and house break the dog (I hope) but not sure how to handle the peeing when you approach her. My thought is to not allow anyone to approach her and just teach her to come and see how that goes. What do you think? We are getting our B on 6/15 so I would want the other pup out by then! The dog's family is in the mind set now to sell the little girl for 100.00 because they can't deal with her. Also, They are gone all day for 9 hours M - F and have one little girl who is 8 yr. old who doesn't listen to adults so this shows you the family's training ability. Dog is in crate all day long! Maybe they should sell it, thoughts on if I should attempt this and how?

I thought I would quote the original one more time just so there is no misunderstanding or speculation on any of the information that has been provided so far.

What evidence is there that this dog came from either of the Puppy Mills that you have mentioned in your original post?

Just because the Puppy mills in the counties you mentioned were taken over by the authorities at a coincidental time does not mean that any shelter or rescue organization in the same area did not have other dogs that needed homes or placement.

Do you have any first hand knowledge other than the dog came from a rescue organization?

I guess I do not understand what your statement about you do not like to fail has anything to do with the dog in question.

As another person stated, if this dog is a rescue, unless there is some other agreement then the dog cannot be sold and it should be returned to rescue. With out reading the agreement that the current owners signed with Rescue none of us know for sure what the agreement is.

Can you identify the rescue organization?

You mentioned the first thing you would do is worm this dog. Well if the dog came from a responsible rescue organization, did they not make sure the dog saw the Vet and had a complete physical prior to adopting this dog out?

Wouldn't it be better to find out what this dogs medical records reflect first?

"We got her a collar and ID tag because they keep losing her in the neighborhood. "

Do you think this type of care and treatment would be within the rescue organizations guidelines and agreement?

I seriously think that someone needs to contact the rescue organization and inform them of what is really going on with this rescue dog. So if you really want to help and do something very responsible contact the rescue organization that they adopted the dog from and do the right thing. Housebreaking the dog for them is not going to help these people or the dog. There are bigger problems than PEE!

Jason

[saralars]

@ComicDom1:

I thought I would quote the original one more time just so there is no misunderstanding or speculation on any of the information that has been provided so far.

What evidence is there that this dog came from either of the Puppy Mills that you have mentioned in your original post?

Just because the Puppy mills in the counties you mentioned were taken over by the authorities at a coincidental time does not mean that any shelter or rescue organization in the same area did not have other dogs that needed homes or placement.

Do you have any first hand knowledge other than the dog came from a rescue organization?

I guess I do not understand what your statement about you do not like to fail has anything to do with the dog in question.

As another person stated, if this dog is a rescue, unless there is some other agreement then the dog cannot be sold and it should be returned to rescue. With out reading the agreement that the current owners signed with Rescue none of us know for sure what the agreement is.

Can you identify the rescue organization?

You mentioned the first thing you would do is worm this dog. Well if the dog came from a responsible rescue organization, did they not make sure the dog saw the Vet and had a complete physical prior to adopting this dog out?

Wouldn't it be better to find out what this dogs medical records reflect first?

"We got her a collar and ID tag because they keep losing her in the neighborhood. "

Do you think this type of care and treatment would be within the rescue organizations guidelines and agreement?

I seriously think that someone needs to contact the rescue organization and inform them of what is really going on with this rescue dog. So if you really want to help and do something very responsible contact the rescue organization that they adopted the dog from and do the right thing. Housebreaking the dog for them is not going to help these people or the dog. There are bigger problems than PEE!

Jason

Yes this is true, I don't know anything for sure. I am just going on the owner's word that this was a pup from one of the puppy mill rescues and that they got her from a foster home. I am pretty sure I will get a 'mind your own business' from them if I ask which rescue they got her from. I will ask tonight though. Do most rescues come with a chip? I could get her to my vet for a scan…but not sure if I will just get owner info. or rescue info. from that. First, I will see if I can get an answer from them about rescue (which one) and then go from there. FAILING to me equals bringing her here for a month and not being able to help her with house breaking and in the process get attached to her and have it all be for nothing if I failed to do it. Thank you for your reply and common sense insight. I am a rescuer, a fixer! Looking at the big picture I don't want to enable them to keep on doing this.

[tanza]

There was a huge puppy mill bust in Washington state around January… many, many small toy dogs were taken... so I have no doubt that this pup came from there.. If I remember correctly, there were at the time of the bust at least 6 or 7 litters still nursing and about as many bitches ready to whelp

[ComicDom1]

@saralars:

Yes this is true, I don't know anything for sure. I am just going on the owner's word that this was a pup from one of the puppy mill rescues and that they got her from a foster home. I am pretty sure I will get a 'mind your own business' from them if I ask which rescue they got her from. I will ask tonight though. Do most rescues come with a chip? I could get her to my vet for a scan…but not sure if I will just get owner info. or rescue info. from that. First, I will see if I can get an answer from them about rescue (which one) and then go from there. FAILING to me equals bringing her here for a month and not being able to help her with house breaking and in the process get attached to her and have it all be for nothing if I failed to do it. Thank you for your reply and common sense insight. I am a rescuer, a fixer! Looking at the big picture I don't want to enable them to keep on doing this.

I can appreciate your position and the fact that you do not want to enable these people to keep doing something like this again. I guess I just have a different view of what rescue or what a rescuer is. In my view rescue or being a rescuer is about being a facilitator who helps retrieve animals out of situations that are unhealthy, unsafe, or unfit. Then that facilitator makes sure the animals health needs are met and attempts to find safe haven and stable situation for that animal where they will be loved, cared and provided for.

I can appreciate you wanting to train this animal by helping to housebreak it but as I said in my other post, I think there are bigger problems here than just Pee.

Jason