@senjisilly just now saw your reply. Thanks for the pedigree website. I knew about it and it’s a great resource.
Untitled
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I am sorry that this thread took a turn away from the original poster's questions but I do think it is very important for people to understand the very serious consequences of lack of socialization in puppies.
Here is a link with several articles and suggested reading about puppy socialization.
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Ok…Im interjecting here to hopefully tone this thread down a bit. There is a ton of valuable information that has been posted but rather than take an "attacking" stand lets take an "educate each other" standpoint instead.
Everyone has a difference of opinion towards Back Yard Breeders. Basenji Forums will not allow the "trashing" of any member, or breeder regardless of if they are a BYB or not. This Forum was created to bring everyone together rather than separate or divide. We want this forum to educate and help preserve this breed rather than push people away
.While I understand your point, I feel that it is important that people understand why a BYB is not a responsible breeder and is pure for profit.
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Ok…Im interjecting here to hopefully tone this thread down a bit. There is a ton of valuable information that has been posted but rather than take an "attacking" stand lets take an "educate each other" standpoint instead.
Everyone has a difference of opinion towards Back Yard Breeders. Basenji Forums will not allow the "trashing" of any member, or breeder regardless of if they are a BYB or not. This Forum was created to bring everyone together rather than separate or divide. We want this forum to educate and help preserve this breed rather than push people away
.Sorry Vanessa :o But sometimes it gets frustrating to try and try to educate, and have misinformation used as an attack. When someone says 'you all should…if you care about the breed'...that hits a nerve for those of us that are doing the very best we can to reach out to educate people about this breed...and when you try and try, and don't make any progress..it is ...well, irritating, and you do take it personally.
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Sorry Vanessa :o But sometimes it gets frustrating to try and try to educate, and have misinformation used as an attack. When someone says 'you all should…if you care about the breed'...that hits a nerve for those of us that are doing the very best we can to reach out to educate people about this breed...and when you try and try, and don't make any progress..it is ...well, irritating, and you do take it personally.
I understand and thats why I interjected when I did. I knew it could get a little out of control. :o The majority of people in this forum take this very seriously and feelings can be hurt and we don't want that :o
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And while both posts and mine are "harsh" they speak the truth… period... responsible breeders condition their pups to be a part of the household..!
You can call yourself a responsible breeder and wave it like a flag, but the truth is, That you really have no idea what someone else's household is really like, unless you have lived with them for an extended period of time. So you really cannot condition a pups to be any part of a household other than your own. Routines are different, people are different, and methods are going to vary.
Also, while you can do all the testing in the world on new puppies and there parents, the truth is, that nothing can fully predict the health and temperament of any dog. You might be able to predict whether or not a Basenji will likely develop Fanconi based on genetic lines, but you cannot guarantee that a Basenji is totally healthy because they have too complex a system. Things can come up like viruses or cancer, that will affect the health of an animal that cannot be predicted.
Jason and Miranda
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Excuse me???? This is what we are talking about….. remember breeders breed to improve the breed and keep the best for themselves... and while it is pretty obvious that we can't keep them all, the most important thing after that is the home they go to.... many, many people are just wanting a loving family companion.. and that is what we can provide... IMO, you are well out of line... as if I remember correctly.. you want to breed your boy?
The question is, do you reach a point where you are not really improving the breed and reach a place where you are only attempting to further your own interests. Yes, many people just want a loving pet, but I think the point that is being made here is that because of the outrageous prices being charged, by so called responsible breeders, you are forcing people to the puppy mills, backyard breeders.** It's clear that you are in business to make money, because if your only interest was to improve the breed, then you would be placing pet quality dogs in good homes for what rescue charges.**
Jason and Miranda
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You think so? I don't know...I think the average dog is expected to have pretty much the same set of house expectations. Most people's homes have the same 'stuff' to which a puppy needs to be conditioned...ya know...TV, radios, people coming and going, furniture not to be chewed, dog toys to be chewed, usually a crate. Placement, timing and techniques may be different...but the more things a puppy is exposed to during 4-8 weeks, the more easily he will adapt to changes in the new household.
It isn't so much about exposing them to *everything they might encounter, but exposing them to lots of things so that their minds learn to adapt to change in general.
And, I don't think that anybody here said that they guarantee their puppies, or any certain breeder's puppies will be healthy for life? I think the general consensus is that responsible breeders test for everything that there is a test for, and them make the best decisions they can, and then hope for the best. And as far as temperament...no, no one can guarantee that...but responsible breeders will guarantee that they will take their dogs back if you, the buyer, become unhappy with the temperament EVEN if it was the buyers that damaged the puppy behaviorally.
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The truth *is, it doesn't matter what you call yourself in this instance...it is what other people call you. Your peers, your puppy buyers and your friends. Anybody can call themselves responsible...but actions speak much louder than words, as usual. -
While I understand your point, I feel that it is important that people understand why a BYB is not a responsible breeder and is pure for profit.
Just because they are a registered AKC breeder, does not mean they are responsible either! Puppy mills sell AKC registered Dogs daily.
Responsible has to be evaluated on a case by case basis. The AKC registration does not insure that any dog is healthy. I really am starting to dislike this holier than thou responsible breeder representation that I keep seeing!
Jason
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<< It's clear that you are in business to make money, because if your only interest was to improve the breed, then you would be placing pet quality dogs in good homes for what rescue charges.>>
Why? Assumedly, rescue charges what it costs to vet, care for, and transport the dogs. That certainly costs a lot less than breeding,vetting, whelping and raising a litter. In some areas of the country pet dogs do cost about what BRAT charges for a young dog adoption. In some areas pets are more expensive, because EVERYTHING is more expensive.
Perhaps some buyers are being 'forced' to buy their puppies from BYBs (puppy mills sell to stores, which are more expensive than responsible breeders)….but again, I guess you get what you pay for. If you don't want to pay for health tested parents, then there are plenty of options out there to NOT do it...but people should be able to make an informed decision.
Example...I need to replace my van. I could buy a new Kia for about 2/3 the price (plus a FREE super compact car) of a new Honda. I know that the longevity/mileage/power/number of cup holders of the Honda is far superior to the Kia...but I can't afford a new Honda right now. So I have to decide if I want to buy the Kia, knowing I won't have it as long, and may have more repairs, or wait and save for the Honda. Or maybe I get lucky, buy the Kia, and it lasts forever! But I need to have as much info as possible to make a good decision.
We all make decisions about the bottom line, right? Nobody that I know in the BCOA is making money breeding Basenjis. Litters are small. We all spend far too much on health testing, and stud selection/transportation, and medical care for the dam for there to be any left over.
This has gotten long
and I am tired 
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Just because they are a registered AKC breeder, does not mean they are responsible either! Puppy mills sell AKC registered Dogs daily.
Responsible has to be evaluated on a case by case basis. The AKC registration does not insure that any dog is healthy. I really am starting to dislike this holier than thou responsible breeder representation that I keep seeing!
Jason
Nobody said that AKC = responsible breeder (well, except maybe AKC)…you are preaching to the choir. Yes, responsible absolutely has to be a case by case basis. Not even within the BCOA would you find absolute agreement on who is a responsible breeder and who isn't.
It is pretty obvious that you are perceiving a holier than thou representation. That is too bad, because that is not the case. There is a wish from most of us that people would become educated about making the choice of adding a dog to their family. And however they decide to do it, breeder, rescue, shelter, whatever...that they would not put money into the pockets of people who broker dogs for money.
Those of us here, that you are judging do this for the love of the breed, period. We don't even do it for love of ribbons, or winning, or creating....and certainly not for money...I don't know what else to tell you....
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The question is, do you reach a point where you are not really improving the breed and reach a place where you are only attempting to further your own interests. Yes, many people just want a loving pet, but I think the point that is being made here is that because of the outrageous prices being charged, by so called responsible breeders, you are forcing people to the puppy mills, backyard breeders.** It's clear that you are in business to make money, because if your only interest was to improve the breed, then you would be placing pet quality dogs in good homes for what rescue charges.**
Jason and Miranda
Need I remind you that this is a non-confrontational forum. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and has the right to express themselves in a courteous and respective manner.
If you have not, than I suggest that you review the forum rules which I have provided in the link below.
http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=374 -
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You think so? I don't know...I think the average dog is expected to have pretty much the same set of house expectations. Most people's homes have the same 'stuff' to which a puppy needs to be conditioned...ya know...TV, radios, people coming and going, furniture not to be chewed, dog toys to be chewed, usually a crate. Placement, timing and techniques may be different...but the more things a puppy is exposed to during 4-8 weeks, the more easily he will adapt to changes in the new household.
It isn't so much about exposing them to *everything they might encounter, but exposing them to lots of things so that their minds learn to adapt to change in general.
And, I don't think that anybody here said that they guarantee their puppies, or any certain breeder's puppies will be healthy for life? I think the general consensus is that responsible breeders test for everything that there is a test for, and them make the best decisions they can, and then hope for the best. And as far as temperament...no, no one can guarantee that...but responsible breeders will guarantee that they will take their dogs back if you, the buyer, become unhappy with the temperament EVEN if it was the buyers that damaged the puppy behaviorally.
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The truth *is, it doesn't matter what you call yourself in this instance...it is what other people call you. Your peers, your puppy buyers and your friends. Anybody can call themselves responsible...but actions speak much louder than words, as usual.Thank you for your post. I can accept and live with everything you have said. A couple of reasons I consistently find your post easy to accept, is because it's apparent to me that you do it with class, and without arrogance.
Once again thank you for your post.
Jason -
Need I remind you that this is a non-confrontational forum. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and has the right to express themselves in a courteous and respective manner.
If you have not, than I suggest that you review the forum rules which I have provided in the link below.
http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=374If you can point out where we have not posted in a courteous and respectful manner, then we will be happy to deal with any consequences you think are fair.
As you pointed out earlier in this thread, the purpose of this site was to bring the Basenji community together. While we certainly can appreciate that purpose, as well as the exchange of information here, we personally have experienced this responsible breeder type attitude since we joined board. Maybe if you could do something to address that issue, the forum will be better off.
I do not think anyone likes being told they made a bad decision, or they bought the pet they love in the wrong place or from the wrong person. I also think that others beside myself and Miranda have and will take exception to being told that we feeding our pets inferior food. I think you will agree, that there are ways to present information on any forum, without coming off as arrogant or in an authoritative manner.
Miranda and I think its great to inform others about Basenji health issues and current testing that is available, but do you think people have to be beat over the head with it in every situation. I think you are probably intelligent enough to figure out whom we are referring to. To be honest, if that person is allowed to continue in similar fashion, then fear not, because the issue will solve itself.
We certainly invite you to email us to discuss this further.
ComicDom1@aol.com
Jason and Miranda -
<< It's clear that you are in business to make money, because if your only interest was to improve the breed, then you would be placing pet quality dogs in good homes for what rescue charges.>>
Why? Assumedly, rescue charges what it costs to vet, care for, and transport the dogs. That certainly costs a lot less than breeding,vetting, whelping and raising a litter. In some areas of the country pet dogs do cost about what BRAT charges for a young dog adoption. In some areas pets are more expensive, because EVERYTHING is more expensive.
While we do not disagree with the cost variance of the two different operations, it does make you wonder how many breeders would be willing to provide a line item cost accounting to any perspective buyer to justify the price they charge.
It also makes us wonder, if finishing a Basenji Pup to Championship Status was not so important to many who breed them,(…ego...status...)as well as the ability to advertise that the new born pups available were from champion bloodlines, we wonder how that would affect how many were bred. We will certainly celebrate the day when organizations like the AKC start requiring total health histories of every bloodline and breed that it recognizes.
While we know we are going to be accused to preaching to the choir, the real tragedy of course is the abuse of any animal of any breed or species.
Jason and Miranda
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I hope this is considered appropriate by the moderators but seems to be a part of the forum rules that really needed a bit of highlighting.
COURTESY AND RESPECT
The purpose of this board is to provide a place for Basenji owners to make connections, exchange information and assist and encourage one another. It is above all a friendly environment for online discussion.
Don't be rude to others, or make an argument personal
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all
Know the difference between a difference of opinion and a personal attack
Don't try to "win" an argument by repeating yourself over and over
Don't tell others what to post
Keep it clean, don't use profanity -
While we do not disagree with the cost variance of the two different operations, it does make you wonder how many breeders would be willing to provide a line item cost accounting to any perspective buyer to justify the price they charge.
I think that most responsible breeders are willing to do this and have done this for perspective buyers. I know that at least one breeder took the time to do this and post it to the web as an example of what it costs to responsibly breed a litter, http://www.geocities.com/rugosab/Prices.htm Many here also encourage anyone who is considering purchasing a puppy to discuss with the breeder what testing they are doing, how they raise their pups, and the basics of what they are really getting for their money. Again the desire if for perspective puppy buyers to make informed decisions.
It also makes us wonder, if finishing a Basenji Pup to Championship Status was not so important to many who breed them,(…ego...status...)as well as the ability to advertise that the new born pups available were from champion bloodlines, we wonder how that would affect how many were bred. We will certainly celebrate the day when organizations like the AKC start requiring total health histories of every bloodline and breed that it recognizes.
I visit a lot of basenji websites and have to say that the breeders that I consider responsible are do not use "champion bloodlines" as a selling point. This isn't to say that they do not brag about their champions and they do have their dogs on their websites with the full names including titles but their reasons for selecting the sire and dam of a litter are really about the qualities of the dogs and not just the titles they have earned. Most of the small blurbs on the litter are fairly well balanced in describing health, temperament, and conformation/performance traits that they are hoping for in the litter.
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Sometimes it's best to just walk away quietly . . . .
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Dear Jason and Miranda,
I kinda get the idea you are only here to attack people (breeders?) on their opinion.
We are all on this forum to help each other. Of course this is also a place to start a discusion, but this feels more like an attack (on Tanza?)
When you feel that responsible breeder aren't responsible (enough), I invite you to start a threat about it. This is a threat about puppy agression.
Now I'm walking away quietly..
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I agree Lisa. I don't think I have seen or heard a BCOA breeder ever use that phrase. Honestly it kind of goes with the territory for carefully planned litters. "Champion bloodlines" in a advertisement is a red flag for me. That is playing to a buyer's desire to have a "champion" dog,or the "best" dog. An educated buyer wouldn't be fooled by that phrase. An educated buyer will be more impressed with "Parents fully tested for genetic disease"…or "Dog may be returned to me for any reason, for the rest of its life"_
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Thank you for your post. I can accept and live with everything you have said. A couple of reasons I consistently find your post easy to accept, is because it's apparent to me that you do it with class, and without arrogance.
Once again thank you for your post.
Jason
Thank you for the compliment, Jason. But, in reality, I am saying pretty much the same thing as the other breeders on this forum. You may like my approach better…but the sentiment is the same.
I suggest that if you don't like the tone with which someone posts, ignore it. That is what I try to do
Obviously, just like in real life, not everyone 'clicks'.And again, the reason that it may see like we harp on the importance of finding a good breeder, is that we want people to be happy and satisified with their pets for the dog's whole life...we don't want to see more dogs coming into rescue, or being indiscriminantly bred, or being abused/neglected. We can reach a lot of people on a forum like this, so we repeat the message over and over. And I can promise you that we feel buyer education is the key.
