Pet store basenji :(

[sharronhurlbut]

Heather, I so hope you don't think we are dissing you.
We are just trying to explain.
I don't breed or show, just do rescue. So, I know about the general public and where they get their dogs, the other on this list do as well.
Pet shops charge so much for a dog who health is ??? where a responsible breeder puts tons of time and heart into each litter they breed.
They don't sell "to just anyone" but your posts show me your not the general "I want" public.
Most pet shops pups are impulse buys with little thought into the health, or what is needed to raise a happy dog.
Its the puppy in the window…
So, you have a chance to get a blood test to find out what your dog has. The fanconis test is $60 and more work is being done each day.
I have done that on my 2 and its worth the price for me to have some
idea of what is coming.
None of us humans, dogs/ have a clear pass on total health until we die of old age.
BUT quality breeder just work so hard to stack the deck in the right place.
When we get pet shops dogs, we are not getting the information re total linage and health.
That is what buyer beware means.
Is that any more help.
I really want to help you be clear on this.
If we need to go private, please, lets do.

[renaultf1]

@hdolbow:

Before this Fanconi test , which can come back indeterminate, ANY SINGLE BASENJI sold, from a breeder OR a puppy mill could have fanconi.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but indeterminate is between clear and carrier…not carrier and afflicted/probable afflicted. So if there is an inderminate, it is as good as clear or carrier as far as pet ownership is concerned. In a breeding situation, with an indeterminate, I believe a responsible breeder would wait for the new test to be made available before breeding an indeterminate dog if the plan was to breed it with a carrier.

And while your statement is true that ANY SINGLE BASENJI sold could have fanconi (prior to the DNA test that started last year)...prior to the test being available last year, reputable/responsible breeders weren't making breeding decisions without the consideration of fanconi and without researching the dogs in the pedigree lines...

My understanding from the test results that have been posted on OFA...while some results were surprises, many were what was expected. To me that says that many breeders did a good job of figuring out which lines/breedings ran the risk of fanconi and planned accordingly.

Puppy mill breedings do not take into account any health information...period...puppy mill breeding is purely for profit, it is as simple as that.

[sharronhurlbut]

I was thinking that is correct as well, but someone mentioned something about a random mutation or something like that??
I just can't remember the term they used.

[sharronhurlbut]

I was thinking that is correct as well, but someone mentioned something about a random mutation or something like that??
I just can't remember the term they used.

[sharronhurlbut]

Sorry for the double posts.

[Kebasmom]

Speaking of supporting pet stores that do not sell puppies and kittens - I was at the Petsmart in Frederick, MD this weekend. There was a guy out in the parking lot selling puppies out of his van. He had some of them in an exercise pen. The manager went out and booted him off the property.

[Ninabeana26]

I think that people are completely confusing what other people are saying.

I don't buy from pet stores that sell puppies for profit. My reasoning is that these puppies come from mills, which I do not want to support, so those stores will remain in business because of the profits from their puppies & also all supplies they sell. BTW, people who but from pet stores waste money IMO because you pay double or more for a dog in which came from a puppy mill with no testing for health, no care to temprement, no breeder responsibility, etc.

That being said, I think aniaml shelters are a wonderful place & have had several dogs from shelters throughout my lifetime. In fact, Dallas is the first pure bred I have ever had. We only went with a pure bred vs. adopting a mutt because we wanted specific qualities associated with a basenji, mainly due to Mark's allergies. Supporting an adoption service is supporting helping out homeless animals. Those animals did not necessarily come from a pet store. They could come from a long line of strays, a pet store, a breeder that for some reason or another the family didn't contact before turning it over to the shelter, etc. So supporting a shelter does not mean you are supporting a puppy mill, which is exactly the opposite of pet stores which sell puppies for profit. For every puppy purchased in a pet store, that is one more litter that a poor abused, starving dog will be forced to have in disgusting living conditions. Without selling those puppies or supplies from these type of stores, they lose business & ultimately [hopefully] go out of business thus eliminating one more place for puppy mills to send their pups.

Also, heather, it isn't that puppy mill puppies shouldn't be bought because of health [although that is many invidiausl reasoning] but it's because of the living conditions these poor animals [the sire & dam] are put through to have their puppies. They are money makers, plain & simple. I don't think any human being would want to be put through that treatment so why should we put man's best friend?

[sharronhurlbut]

Glad the manager took steps to remove the guy from the property.
I just shudder when I see folks passing out pets from the front of the grocery stories.
Just awful how some of these babies end up.

[Ninabeana26]

Also, in re to Fanconi, if we ever want to eliminate the Fanconi disease in this breed we simply cannot have dogs who are untested being bred. I'm sure anyone whose pup ends up with Fanconi will still love their dog & care for them [hopefully using protocol] but the point is, buying a puppy whose parents haven't been tested means you are supporting the breeding of untested dogs & again, untested dogs could simply be spreading this awful disease when it would be beneficial for every single Basenji for the disease to go extinct.

[lvoss]

The current DNA linked marker test that is being offered gives 4 possible results: Probably Clear/Normal, Probably Carrier, Probably Afflicted, and Indeterminate between Clear and Carrier. This is not the same as saying their status is the same as having no test information. From a puppy buyer's perspective an IND status means the dog will not become symptomatic for the disease. From a breeder's standpoint the dog should only be bred to dog that has tested Probably Clear.

Now, something that I think people also do not understand if they are looking for "just a pet" is exactly how much information and risk mitagation a responsible breeder can do from good in depth pedigree health data. OFA has a really good article on how to use vertical pedigree data to reduce the incidence of complex inherited disorders such as hip dysplaysia and they work. When you buy from a responsible breeder they collect this information and use it to make as good a breeding choice as they can from the information available. It is not perfect but it is far better than shear dumb luck. With DNA testing there is no guess work, if a dog has a clear parent and the disorder is recessive then they will not get the disease.

http://www.offa.org/hovanart.pdf

[renaultf1]

@Ninabeana26:

Also, heather, it isn't that puppy mill puppies shouldn't be bought because of health [although that is many invidiausl reasoning] but it's because of the living conditions these poor animals [the sire & dam] are put through to have their puppies. They are money makers, plain & simple. I don't think any human being would want to be put through that treatment so why should we put man's best friend?

Actually, I'd say puppy mill puppies shouldn't be bought because everytime a puppy mill puppy is purchased from a pet store, it keeps the puppy mill in business…simple equation of supply and demand. And a purchase (which keeps the mills in business) thus supports the deplorable living conditions of the animals and the complete disregard of the health of the animals being bred and the puppies that are being sold.

Imagine a world with no pet stores that sold live animals...without that sort of outlet to sell large amounts puppies, it would be tough to keep puppy mills running.

[hdolbow]

do you even realize the amount of dogs on the internet for sale? puppyfind.com had over 350 basenji puppies on it when i looked at it in january. even if Pet stores were not around they would still get sold. until you can shut down every website that is used to sell dogs nothing will ever change. i dont think you realize that.

and nina, im not saying that adopting a dog is the same as purchasing a puppy mill puppy.. youre just getting the same stock. temperment, and all that is unknown in adopting just as bad as if you are buying from a pet store. and if youre breeding a dog well then yeah, health is important, but if youre getting your dog fixed, it doesnt really matter what conditon the dog MAY or MAY NOT have.

[sharronhurlbut]

I always feel so sorry for any breed of dog kept at those horror puppymills.
Its just awful! Someday, maybe we will be able to save them all.

[sharronhurlbut]

I would be so interested to see how many of these e-mail ads are put out by puppymillers…
Anyone have any idea?
Heather, this is why education and one dog at a time will work.
It won't be quick...but if nothing else, it helps the dog we are working with.
It has to start somewhere...rescue and education are the key, imo.

[hdolbow]

i agree. i just dont understand how someone can say the only way to have a dog is to buy from a breeder.. or adopt ( which is the same type of stock that would be found in a pet store and theres NO information on the dog at all) im not saying puppy mills are okay, because they arent. But to say that its a consumers fault that they are still around is completely mind boggling to me. Shouldn't it be the governments fault? the USDA or something along those lines ? To blame consumers for puppy mills existing is crazy to me.

[renaultf1]

@hdolbow:

do you even realize the amount of dogs on the internet for sale? puppyfind.com had over 350 basenji puppies on it when i looked at it in january. even if Pet stores were not around they would still get sold. until you can shut down every website that is used to sell dogs nothing will ever change. i dont think you realize that.

Ummmm…yes...I realize that they are for sale on the internet, I know the internet well . I failed to use the internet in my simple example. So the same would be said for purchasing a dog over the internet. No demand, no supply, no business...same exact issue. The key is educating people to why they should buy from responsible breeders.

[hdolbow]

lol just pointing it out

but like i've said before.. not everyone can AFFORD to do that.
and online, a lot of them are CHEAPER than a breeder, not more expensive, like in a pet store.

[DiegosMom]

@hdolbow:

do you even realize the amount of dogs on the internet for sale? puppyfind.com had over 350 basenji puppies on it when i looked at it in january. even if Pet stores were not around they would still get sold. until you can shut down every website that is used to sell dogs nothing will ever change. i dont think you realize that.

and nina, im not saying that adopting a dog is the same as purchasing a puppy mill puppy.. youre just getting the same stock. temperment, and all that is unknown in adopting just as bad as if you are buying from a pet store. and if youre breeding a dog well then yeah, health is important, but if youre getting your dog fixed, it doesnt really matter what conditon the dog MAY or MAY NOT have.

Shutting down pet stores that sell live animals may not entirely shut down puppy mills, but i would assume it would have a great affect on their business. I am going to guess that throughout the US a lot of puppymill sales come from pet stores. It may not change everything, but I also wouldnt say its going to change nothing getting these pet stores out of business.

You say puppy mill pups will get sold even if pet stores get shut down, but at least getting pet stores that sell live animals shut down is one step in the right direction. I dont mean to be mean but it is a very simple concept that ANY sales (supplies, food, animals)from a pet store that sells animals helps to keep puppy mills in business. If these pet stores are making money and staying open, they are buying animals from puppy mills.

Although shutting down live animal pet stores would only be fixing one part of the problem and websites would still be around, i, and i'm sure a lot of others would be VERY HAPPY with the progress

Pet stores that sell puppies are horrible businesses and if you have seen videos of puppy mills or are informed about them i dont understand how you can support buying ANYTHING from these pet stores. And not to mention, the puppies are WAY overpriced, and can be purchased from a responsible breeder for less, so the excuse of buying from a pet store becasue not being able to afford a responsible breeder is rubbish.

And I dont think anyone in this thread has even touched on the fact that pet store puppies (or internet) are not required to get spayed or neutered, which is also a HUGE problem!

I'm sorry this is long and I am venting, but as you can tell i am disgusted with pet stores. I will never understand how people work for or own these stores and puppy mills. Also, I do not mean to offend anyone who has purchased a dog from a pet store if they were uniformed and didnt know where the puppies came from or didnt know about puppy mills. But I do think it is the job of consumers who do know about puppy mills to try and inform those who dont. I know there is only so much one individual can do, but spreading the word about these horrible puppy mills and educating others can only help.

[renaultf1]

Heather…Yes, but then I'll take it back full circle to a post from lvoss...if someone can't afford to purchase from a responsible breeder, than a consideration should be can the person afford to care for the pet...a spay costs upwards of $300...when Ruby had to go to the vet for her shots it was $125, and when she was sick last fall the vet visit was $75. It all takes budgeting and then there is the emergency care...

If a person has their heart set on having an animal and can't afford to go to a reputable breeder then rescue or a shelter is a better option than buying cheaply over the internet. I'm having a hard time here because I can't imagine considering purchasing an animal based on whether I could "get it cheaper" or "get a good deal" on the internet. And I can't imagine the better deal weighing higher than the knowledge of the breed and health testing that a reputable breeder brings to the table.

[DiegosMom]

@renaultf1:

If a person has their heart set on having an animal and can't afford to go to a reputable breeder then rescue or a shelter is a better option than buying cheaply over the internet. I'm having a hard time here because I can't imagine considering purchasing an animal based on whether I could "get it cheaper" or "get a good deal" on the internet. And I can't imagine the better deal weighing higher than the knowledge of the breed and health testing that a reputable breeder brings to the table.

I agree with you 100%!
I just think that some people dont think about health or knowledge of the breed when buying a puppy and just want the cute little thing they see in the picture or store window, with no information whatsoever. This situation is just a sad and unfortunate reality.