Okay, deep growling..when moving Tobias?

[JazzysMom]

Jazz used to get really growly/snarky when we moved her, esp in her sleep.
I guess it never occured to me to use treats …. I feel like that's more of a bribe in those situations.....I just told her to knock it off and picked her up in such a way that she could not bite me, and moved her. Now anyone can move her anywhere, any time and she may still "har-umph", but that's it.

We're doing the same thing with Keoki, and he's almost there. Still grumbles if my two youngest boys bug him in his sleep {to move him, etc. not just to bug him; that is NOT allowed} , so when that happens I have them {with my help} hold his neck firmly but gently in a way that does not allow biting, with a firm but calm "NO", then they pet him, talk to him {reward for stopping the noise}, and move him. He is very close, however, to not complaining at them at all.

I guess I use treats to reward new behaviors that I am training -- sit, stay, etc. But when it comes to them responding to people in an unacceptable way, I look at that differently. I don't use treats. Feels too much to me like -- "If you don't growl at me, I'll give you a treat" when what I am going for is "You do not growl at me {or any family member}, period". Besides, what if I forget the treat when I want them to move? Then what?

Growling at strangers is different, and it gets a "no", and I remove the dog. When we have people over that make them uncomfortable, I crate the dogs or let them outside when the people are in and vice versa.

Just my .02.

[Quercus]

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Well, it can be misused in that way. But the premise of the training is not bribing the dog. In the begining you may use the treat to lure the dog off the furniture...but then you train the dog to move on request, when the dog complies you reward, at first with food, and then with praise.
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Why...what's in it for the dog to not growl? I agree that ideally, we want our dogs to be cooperative enough that the would never even consider growling at us. But that isn't the way it is with a lot of dogs. And often by escalating the level of aggression by forcing a dog out of its space, or yelling, the dog's aggression gets worse instead of better. In lots of other breeds you can force a dog to do what you want...in Basenjis, it usually just makes thing worse.
If one of my dogs is complaining if I want to move him, yeah, I just carry on, and move him...but if it is a seriously dangerous growl/snap, I would be a fool to grab for the dog to shove him off. That is when you turn to training, rather than forcing.

[gbroxon]

@JazzysMom:

…. I feel like that's more of a bribe in those situations.....I just told her to knock it off and picked her up in such a way that she could not bite me, and moved her. ...

It's a reward for an "off" and a "sit," not a bribe for stopping the snarking. He's not in the middle of snarking when asked for the off/sit, so, obviously, cannot be bribed out of it.

The process you describe to not get bit (holding her neck), wouldn't work with Magnum, he sleeps very lightly.

Other than being snarky to my husband upon bedtime, Magnum has never demonstrated this snarky behavior awake or asleep, so I'm not sure what I'd do if it became a common occurrence.

[Quercus]

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You should really read that article that Robyn (yodeldogs) linked to here, by Susan Clothier. It really explains why reprimanding a nervous dog for expressing his discomfort is confusing and reinforcing for the dog. It is a natural thing for us to want to do, particularly because with kids, we immediately jump on and correct any behavior that we don't want to see...but dogs don't reason the same way humans do...and it just doesn't work the same way.
If you correct a dog enough for growling when they are nervous, they will eventually learn not to growl, and go straight for the next level of threat...they really will...and then people say 'oh, he bit the child out of the blue, with no warning'

[JazzysMom]

I don't think I ever said I used "force" or "yelled" at the dogs. What I said was, I opt not to use treats for this particular thing, and that I hold the dog in such a way that it cannot bite me {painless; just at an angle where the teeth can't reach me no matter which way the head turns}, tell it "Knock it off", lift it up and move it. It's quick and smooth. The dog finds itself standing on the floor, or in a different spot, whatever.

[nomrbddgs]

This is why I said to watch the reactions and the dog's reactions-there were probably clues before the aggression-I only know of one dog in about 25 years that had 'sudden aggression'-this was because of a brain problem. Usually the signs are there, people just don't think about it, think it's 'cute' when they're young, or just don't see it. Unless someone is very observant or trained to watch for clues most people don't see aggression until it becomes a problem. I'm not knocking anyone I'm just stating.

[Quercus]

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I do that too...but I call if force...because the dog isn't choosing to move for itself.

[Quercus]

@JazzysMom:

I don't think I ever said I used "force" or "yelled" at the dogs. What I said was, I opt not to use treats for this particular thing, and that I hold the dog in such a way that it cannot bite me {painless; just at an angle where the teeth can't reach me no matter which way the head turns}, tell it "Knock it off", lift it up and move it. It's quick and smooth. The dog finds itself standing on the floor, or in a different spot, whatever.

I just wanted to express that there are dogs out there that your method won't work for, because the dog would escalate to a bite…yours won't, and that is great. The treat method works because you don't push the dog to that 'I really want to bite threshold'.

You can see it as bribing, and rewarding if you want...it is an very old disagreement between positive reinforcement trainers and punishment trainers. You certainly wouldn't be the only one sitting on that bench. But as someone who works with aggressive dogs, I can tell you that the positive reinforcement technique is much more theraputic and effective for rehabbing an aggressive dog.

[Mantis]

When Caesar growls at me on the couch to not be moved, I will typically "steam roll" or "body slam" him, LOL. He loves it, really he does.:D

[Quercus]

@Quercus:

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I do that too...but I call if force...because the dog isn't choosing to move for itself.

Just to clarify my own post. What I meant was force doesn't have to be rough or hostile...it just means I am going to force you to do what I want. In fact, you can force somebody to do what you want without even touching them, when you take away all other options.

[luzmery928]

Everyone's advise here is very good and as always not one thing is good for everyone. I do have a ? though regarding the treat/bribe. So should you always use this method eventhough the dog might not always object to being moved? I ask this because my B doesn't always growl/snap I guess it depends on his mood but how would I know that until the actual aggressive/dislike reaction comes out?

[lvoss]

If your dog sometimes growls and sometimes doesn't, I would use the calling off and then reward method since you don't know which he will do.

[Mantis]

honestly, I do not accept the growling from any of my basenjis wether it is attack growling or grumpy gus sounds. I address it at the moment I see it. If it is a grumpy gus, I move him so he knows it isnt acceptable and do not acknowledge the bad behavior. I typically laugh at Caesar when he gets grumpy.:D

If they are really grumpy and not fangs out, just non stop grumpy, I typically hold Caesar down in that position and talk in a tone that lets him know that behavior isnt okay. Then follow with some sort of affection. Slight scolding.:rolleyes:

If it is unacceptable fangy type growling that could lead into fighting with another dog or harming someone and I have already established I am alpha and mom (and am respected by my dogs as the greatest authority)…I will close the muzzle and physically put the basenji into a chill position (lie down on the side) and talk in a tone to establish the behavior isnt acceptable.

Then I will carry the basenji to the kennel and he or she will stay in there until there is not growling, crying or whining. Once there is no sound, I will let them out of the kennel and require a sit or a down first to establish I am in charge.

I really believe eye contact is important :eek: when you are having a serious talk. I do not typically stop talking to my basenjis about their bad behavior in my mom is no happy tone, until they look away. That is my sign that they give in.

I never have to do more than use the mom tone, eye contact and training commands to get my point across. There is never a need to physically hurt, yell or ever give a treat that could be related to bad behavior.

That is my take.

This method works so well that if I catch really bad behavior with any of the basenjis and whip out the darth vadar mom voice when saying their name only:mad: , I get an immediate sit or down without even asking from across the room.

[luzmery928]

It's funny because when I call my B by his full name he knows it's seriouse I'll say Champion enough or stop and he's look at me like I'm in trouble. My husband laughs at me.

[JazzysMom]

The process you describe to not get bit (holding her neck), wouldn't work >>with Magnum, he sleeps very lightly.

I guess I don't understand this…... when I hold the dog that way and move it, the dog is awake and snarky about being expected to move. I don't do it when the dog is asleep. When the dog is asleep, I say its name so it knows I am there, then touch the shoulder/back to awaken it, then say something along the lines of "Let's go" or whatever to indicate I want the dog to move.

It's when the dog gets snarky that I do my lift and scoop.
That's one reason I like the size of the Basenji -- I couldn't do that if it were a rottweiler.

[JazzysMom]

it is an very old disagreement between positive reinforcement trainers and >>punishment trainers.

With my dogs {and my kids} I use positive reinforcement and "punishment", depending on the dog and the situation.
I don't think either one is the right way in every situation.

[Duke]

When Duke does something unacceptable and I say "Bad boy Duke", he tries getting back on my good side right away. He don't like "bad boy"! Daisy's still learning what's acceptable, but when I say "DAISY!!" She stops whatever it is and swaggers slowly over to me. I do my mommy "babble" and then a quick little pet to show her we're square. I just can't be angry with them . . . They're too cute!

[luzmery928]

My trainer suggested the empty can with pennies when Champ dosen't respond to the "NO". Whenever that can goes down he stops immediatly and looks at me from the corner of his eye and walks away with his head down. After a few seconds he starts walking slowly to me still with his head low and very little eye contact and lays practicaly on top of me and falls asleep. Little brat knows just how to melt my heart. I do make him suffer for a while, o.k maybe a few minutes then I can't help myself and I give in.

[Mantis]

the penny thing never worked for me.

[luzmery928]

It works wonders for us except we have to use it sparingly so he dosen't catch on to it not being a threat