dreaming of a Basenji girl... (ILM)

[marcorilli]

Not sure how true this is. But I believe brindle basenjis are typically less money for some reason. I got mine for 500 and have seen other brindles online for the same price. Apparently there harder to train but ours is still hardly trained and not neutered but is a sweetheart and very good dog. They also look more exotic then the typical basenji. People always think my dog is a dingo or a fox gets lots of looks everywhere we go.

[tanza]

@marcorilli - Responsible breeders do not price puppies on color. And they are not priced on sex either. A brindle is no harder to train then any other color. That comes from temperament, not color. Prices can vary across the US, typically higher in the West because cost of living is higher.

[tanza]

@elbrant - Many breeders will place "ex" show dogs that they are not using for breeding. Price can vary a lot depending on the breeder. Personally, if I had an adult to place (but I don't at this time), for me the most important thing is the home, not the price. And yes from responsible breeders puppy prices are typically 900.00 to 1200.00. 1800.00 is really over the top. Lots go into breeding a litter and speaking from experience, I have never made a dime from my puppies. I have been lucky to break even

[marcorilli]

This post is deleted!

[marcorilli]

@tanza every brindle basenji I’ve seen including the one I bought was cheaper then all the other colors. Mine was 500 along with all the others I saw online. I was also told by the training company we went to who have been training dogs for 50+ years that brindles are harder to train because their color comes from their dna. I didn’t know that I was told that by a professional.

[CrazySenji]

I don't have much to add to help the search other than to echo Pat's advice. A retired show dog might be a great fit for you! I'd contact a few breeders to see what they have. Also, a lot of breeders are friends and will refer people! I see my basenji breeder friends help each other place dogs all the time. I do not know how much a breeder would charge for a retired dog as I've only purchased show prospect puppies.

It's a HUGE red flag for a breeder to charge based on color! That is something BYB and millers do. "Rare color! I can make more $$$". They aren't rare, they aren't exotic- they are just different! If someone charges differently based on color, RUN! Also, ALL color comes from DNA.

I've owned 3 basenjis: 2 reds and a brindle, all 3 male. Each dog is a unique individual. Morgan my brindle has better recall than either of my reds and Elliot my current red knows more tricks and is the most willing to please. I have been told it's harder to finish a brindle than the other colors which I found to be true, many judges will put up the flashy tri or red over the others. BUT.. that doesn't apply here since the OP is looking for a companion. I have heard breeders say that tris have different personalities but I don't intend to own a tri and can't comment.

[dogelover]

In case this info is helpful, I got a retired male show dog at 18 months old for $1100 (Virginia area) and the breeder's puppies go for $1300.

[tanza]

@marcorilli - All colors come from their DNA, case in point are Tris. If you breed a Tri to a Tri, you get all Tris. If you breed a Tri to a Red, the Red has to carry the Tri gene and you could get Tris. Tri gene is recessive.

[marcorilli]

@tanza ok lol

[elbrant]

Thank you everyone!
I will keep you up to date on the hunt.
el

[tanza]

When I first got into the breed, Reds were dominate color in the show ring in California.... Tris were typically sent to the back of the line or totally forgotten about, along with Black/White. Then after a number of years, Tris/B&W/Brindles out numbered the Reds and the other colors were put up and dogs were judged on conformation, not color. However to this day we still have judges that are tagged "Red or Dead"... LOL. To some judges they look totally for wrinkles and the Tris/B&W/Brindles it is hard to see compared to the Reds. If judges judge the conformation and note the ear set they can see wrinkles as the ear placement is to be high on the head and they should be hooded. If you look at the illustrated standard, my Tri girl is featured showing a proper ear/head and you can clearly see her Wrinkles. In order for the most part, easiest to see these are Reds, Brindles, Tri, Black & Whit. Here is a link, see page 9 https://www.basenji.org/BasenjiU/Judge/Study/Illustrated-Standard-2012.pdf

Breeders strive for the "correct" Basenji as far as the Standard in addition to Temperament and most important Health. Breeders do have preference to colors and will breed accordingly to their preference.

You will hear people say (and I am one) the Tris are "wicked".. LOL... not in being mean, but testing you just about every step of the way and making you laugh... but all Basenjis regardless of color make you laugh every day.... I love them all, just lean to Tris and Reds.

When there are questions such as Color and DNA, go to a Breeder for information.. and one that is a member of the Basenji Club of America (www.basenji.org) these are the people that developed the standand over the years.
(obviously not directed to you CrazySenji as I know you get your "kids" from a responsible breeder... LOL as my litter 4 yrs ago was a sire from your breeder)

To elbrant: contact a breeder, you might find exactly what you are looking for...

[CrazySenji]

At the last show I was at there days with no reds and when there were reds they were outnumbered but the other colors. I agree.. there will always be "Red or dead" judges. My brindle boy placed under one of them and I nearly fell over!

I 100% support breeders breeding for the colors they like but can't support people breeding based on color alone. You are right, there are FAR more important things than color!

[elbrant]

@marcorilli I'm developing the opinion that pups vary in price based more on location and availability than other factors. There is a breeder in Georgia (USA) charging close to $2K; compared to a breeder in Michigan (USA) with pups priced just under $500. I would jump on a pup from the latter litter if it made sense. Bummer that I have to factor in the costs of travel (gas, food, and lodging, as well as potential air fare). By the time I got there I would be spending more to bring her home than I would to pay to the breeder for the transfer of ownership. sigh

[elbrant]

@tanza You are right, Tanza... I hesitated to say it sooner as I didn't want to step on anyone's toes. DNA determines color mix - just like a dark haired man is less likely to father a red headed child (based on the 40 year memories of my high school classes). DNA/parentage is also going to affect dental/bone (structural) and fanconi (disease) issues/complications. Temperment, I think, is more of a learned trait. A pup spending their early days playing with an exuberant toddler will be more trusing than, perhaps, a pup who is exposed to a frustrated/angry teenager. [examples only - I was just trying to think of extreme opposites]
-el

[tanza]

@elbrant - I disagree about temperament... 50 years ago Basenjis had horrible temperaments to the extent that judges in the ring were afraid to touch them (still today some of them are still around). Breeders made it top of the list to breed good temperaments... Of course early socialization and continued socialization if a very strong factor, but DNA for temperament is in fact true.

[tanza]

@elbrant - The breeder you talk about in Ga is NOT a responsible breeder... it is someone greedy for money, 2K is way out of line.. and one that would price pups according to what is most popular at the time. Across the US prices are varied on location and cost of living. In the West it is usually between 1000.00 and 1200.00....and it is expensive in California for proper Vet care/raising a litter, some breeders have different prices for show vs pet, I do not. It cost the same for a show prospect as a family companion to raise them. From responsible breeders, price are typically between 900.00 to 1200.00 across the US. Years ago I placed a pup with a couple in So. Cal.... the Mom of the litter had issues with my oldest female so I offered these people the Mom and the pup as they had been thinking of getting two. it was "buy one, get one free.. LOL" because to me the home and re-home was the most important thing. BEST decision I have ever done... So you just need to talk to breeders and what you are looking for. You are bound to fine something that will be the perfect fit for you.

[elbrant]

@tanza I almost want to "agree to disagree" on temperament. I'm not sure that DNA is an excuse for bad behavior - it's too close to the "born a criminal" argument for me to be comfortable with it. I will suggest this though... perhaps in a focused effort to eliminate temperament issues, breeders chose sires and dams who were kinder, gentler, and better socialized. And, as a result, the litters from those pairings were handled more frequently and earlier, and the parents were better equipped (socially) to teach their pups how to fit into a modern household better. Those factors alone would strongly influence changes in the littermates attitude and that of their future offspring. Also, lest I forget... weren't those early litters often parented by dogs that were brought over from the wilds of Africa? Certainly, those particular dogs would not have been handled, stacked, or otherwise trained for the showring and would have found those situations to be "unnerving" at best - thus passing their fear and intimidation along to their litters? (If "Mom's" afriad, I should be too, right?)
I will have to continue considering the DNA vs Learned Behavior debate as I gain more knowledge to guage it with. For now, I will agree that it has been influenced by breeding, but not neccessarily genetics...

[tanza]

@elbrant - Breeding is Genetics? And of course proper socialization is necessary as much as breeding for good temperaments. Poor temperaments come from poor breeding... and my comment about early Basenjis and poor temperaments were Basenji born in the 60's/70's... but of course they come down from the original Basenjis that were imported to England in the 40's.

[elbrant]

@tanza yes, breeding is genetics... isn't it? I mean, you are selecting sires and dams based on which attributes you want to carry on to the litter. Perhaps the last paring didn't have enough of a wrinkled brow... so you look for a different sire that has more pronounced wrinkles. Or one of the dams you were breeding started throwing Fanconi, so you remove her from your breeding stock. Or, there was a problem with hip displasia (or anything else). Aren't you then, breeding to manipulate the genetic makeup of your litters so they can be the best of the best.
Granted, you aren't working on the cellular level in a biolab. But aren't you still working with genetics through breeding? Or, am I overthinking this?

[tanza]

@elbrant - Not overthinking it.... just need to include temperament as part of the genetics. If you have litter that the temperament come out "sharp"... and a breeder can see that as early as 3 to 4 wks... you would not want repeat that breeding.
By the way, wrinkles come from the ear set, ears need to be set high of the head to get pronounced wrinkles. Of course it is easier to see in Red/White then in Tri or Black/White. Here is a link you should read https://www.basenji.org/BasenjiU/Judge/Study/Illustrated-Standard-2012.pdf