a name that goes with moonlight… follow my crazy thought process here... dancin' in the moonlight... van morrison... and it's st. patrick's day... van morrison's irish... so how about morris?!? such a little old man name, but i love it. and you could sing van morrison songs to him all the time!
My new brindle bundle of joy…
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Am I being too soft? I know I have a difficult dog– a stubborn, dominant and yes, a wild dog-- and that training her isn't easy. It's true that gentle discipline and positive reinforcement aren't really working so well. But I know there's a good dog in there. How do we reach her?
I think there is a possibility that a different approach, i.e. a firmer hand, could work, but it takes a very experienced and observant trainer to get a little tougher without pushing too far. Some animals will not respect you without "proof" that they should, but it is a fine line. Overdoing discipline can land you in big trouble with the wrong critter (I had a horse who went from "stubborn" to "scared" in a split second, and you did not want to cross that line with him! Scared large animals are dangerous…...to themselves and others). But I have seen magic worked if the trainer is experienced enough to "read" the animal correctly. Tricky thing is finding that special trainer!!
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So a choke collar might be an acceptable way to train in Ava's case? I believe that there is a way to do it using only the noise as a negative reinforcement (in much the way that the clicker is a positive reinforcement). I might not be so opposed to that, if someone knew exactly how to do it, but some of the trainers I've talked to believe in a physical correction, with the animal's behavior determining how "physical" the correction would be. As stubborn as Ava is, I would be afraid they would hurt her. She's such a little thing to be so mulish.
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So a choke collar might be an acceptable way to train in Ava's case? I believe that there is a way to do it using only the noise as a negative reinforcement (in much the way that the clicker is a positive reinforcement). I might not be so opposed to that, if someone knew exactly how to do it, but some of the trainers I've talked to believe in a physical correction, with the animal's behavior determining how "physical" the correction would be. As stubborn as Ava is, I would be afraid they would hurt her. She's such a little thing to be so mulish.
I wouldn't use a choke collar. It's too easy to cause physical damage. And I don't know without seeing her that she is being alpha/stubborn. Certainly when she gets upset enough to have diarrhea, that is a sign of fear, not dominance.
The best trainers use only enough force to get the desired result, and it's likely wrong to label it force. More like pressure. Negative reinforcement, used correctly, is simply creating an uncomfortable situation that the animal would prefer to escape. "Fix it up and let them find it". After a bit, a little pressure or discomfort provokes a search by the animal for whatever turns off the pressure. With horses, you tend to use either pressure from reins or legs or a whip (used with a light tap that irritates, rather than causes pain). When the desired action happens, the pressure ceases. Dogs are not motivated the same way as horses, and are more inclined to resist pressure, even to the point of injury, as happens with collars and leashes on occasion. ( a relatively sharp jerk is likely better than allowing them to lean on the leash, however)
I think what differentiates a great trainer is their powers of observation. They see the intent before the action, and are able to circumvent it with a distraction or mild correction before the animal actually makes that mistake. Timing and consistency are what get you there. And patience!!
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It's possible because of her level of fortitude that a more rigorous approach be needed…it sounds that she isn't responding to verbal cues so perhaps compromise and instead of a choke collar use a martingale which acts as a choke collar with a safety?? Again, whenever crossing over from verbal to physical cues an expert is recommended, I felt comfortable enough because I knew Oakley well to direct training as I saw fit..but I realize that isn't everyone's view...
Ps- I could whisper to him or scream from a megaphone and he ignores me, same if I away his bum to stop him from trying to steal my dinner..totally and completely ignores me...and isn't phased!!! ...the jerk
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Have you done any of the relaxation protocal and read the Control Unleashed book? there is a yahoo group with lots of good info on reactive/over-the-top dogs. You can join, but you'll need to read the book before you post (to avoid redundancy) In the CU book she talks about clicking for relaxed breathing. I think there is a youtube out there of that sort of thing. The RP/mat work will help a dog to learn that life goes on around them and they don't have to get involved. (Click to Calm may also be a good book to look into) If you'd be open to moving to Colorado (and it is lovely here), i'd be happy to give some more hands on help
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I agree, Colorodo is beautiful! Perhaps an extends vacation Pamela?!? Lol
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Hi ownedbyspencer, I just wanted to say I think you are a very wonderful person giving all of you in trying to find a break through with your little Ava and hope it happens soon. Don't give up and when it happens I am sure she will be ever so special to you. All the best.
Jolanda and Kaiser
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LOL, agilebasenji and Chealsie, a vacation– yes! I need one! And Colorado IS beautiful... but could you see flying Ava in the crate? Her screams would interfere with radar, and I would be afraid she would destruct the crate and chew a hole in the plane (only half joking). I'm reading Control Unleashed now. I'm also using the Martingale for gentle corrections. I do see signs of progress, though every win is small and hard fought.
It seems to be both fear and obstinance, eeeefarm. The behaviorist said Ava had a fear of confinement and severe separation anxiety, as well as frustration intolerance and dominance issues. Ava has pretty much stopped the diarrhea, though she is anxious about confinement and being alone. We have been working on crate desentization for more than a month now, and though it's sloooooooow going, we are inching our way along. She still soils the crate, but she does it within minutes of the door shutting. I can slip back, scoop it up and we'll start over. Sometimes, she'll have another small accident, but now, finally, it's mostly just the first mess and a bucket of pee. I am still doing laundry almost every day. I have never seen a puppy pee so much!
And thank you, stash-- how nice of you to say! I have had so many people suggest I give Ava up, but that has never been an option. I wish she had been an easier puppy, and I certainly envisioned a far different puppyhood, but she is my baby girl and she is home. Unless, of course, the stress kills me, and there have been days I thought it might!
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Back in the day, I worked with a difficult dog (not a Basenji), and the end of over six months of struggle came with such suddenness it astounded me. Literally overnight, this dog decided I indeed was the boss of her, and from that day forward there was nothing I could ask that she wouldn't do! Unfortunately, her attitude adjustment did not stretch as far as her owners. If she got out of the house, they could not catch her, and would call me to help. I lived a block away, so I would just walk over, call the dog, and she would immediately come to me.
One time I got a frantic call from them at the vet's. She was loose in the examination room and threatening to bite everyone in sight. I hurried to assist, walked in, and the vet cautioned me to be careful, but she came to me immediately. I picked her up, placed her on the table and put a muzzle on her at the vet's request, and that was the end of the problem. The only sad thing was that I did not own her and they loved her and wouldn't give her up, despite the problems she caused them.
Sorry for the long digression, but my point is that Ava may suddenly decide to change her behaviour. I wouldn't expect perfection…..after all, a Basenji has a reputation to uphold.....but yes, things can indeed change that dramatically.
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It was neither long nor a digression– I enjoyed the story and related to it! Ava may change... or I could be like those owners who loved a dog that would never respect them. What I have finally had to do is to accept Ava's limitations and adjust my expectations to her temperament. She and I are a mismatch, and while it's disappointing, all I can do is try and make her the best she can be. Maybe she'll surprise me and prove all the vets and trainers and experts wrong!
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LOL, agilebasenji and Chealsie, a vacation– yes! I need one! And Colorado IS beautiful... but could you see flying Ava in the crate? Her screams would interfere with radar, and I would be afraid she would destruct the crate and chew a hole in the plane (only half joking). I'm reading Control Unleashed now. I'm also using the Martingale for gentle corrections. I do see signs of progress, though every win is small and hard fought.
Well, you could always drive.
I'm glad to hear you are seeing some progress.
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I can attest to a quick turn around…thins were so bad for so long with Oakley. When I finally started to adjust my expectations to his limitations (just like u said Pamela) it made it easier...and then one day he was a changed dog..we are still different styles as I call it but we make it work...sometimes I wish he was more amenable to me but then again, he wouldn't be Oakley.
As she grows things should get easier...perhaps not in the "storybook" way but in a liveable way!
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I'm not sure where you are in TN, but we will be racing ours in Midway, TN in a couple weeks if you would like to meet her uncle and two cousins.
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Please don't use a choke collar. Stick with the clicker and positive methods - she's just a puppy! If I get this right, you've only known each other for a month and a half? You've had dogs before, you know it takes enormous amounts of time and patience to help them develop into calm, lovely grown-ups, and some of them certainly need more guidance than others…
'Alpha' and 'dominant', by the way, are labels that trainers nowadays have abandoned, based on theories they have debunked. Your puppy has various issues which all have a cause, and placing them all under a general 'dominance' or 'stubbornness' label can only, in my opinion, distract from the solution and make you feel like she's voluntarily antagonising you.
Trust your original instincts, and continue doing the great job of researching and exploring positive solutions that you've already started. It's only been a few weeks!
Just my two cents...
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I can attest to a quick turn around…thins were so bad for so long with Oakley. When I finally started to adjust my expectations to his limitations (just like u said Pamela) it made it easier...and then one day he was a changed dog..we are still different styles as I call it but we make it work...sometimes I wish he was more amenable to me but then again, he wouldn't be Oakley.
As she grows things should get easier...perhaps not in the "storybook" way but in a liveable way!
LOL, Chealsie, Ava and Oakley are like fine wine– they get better with age! I just wasn't anticipating Ava's problems and expected her temperament to be different and for her to progress faster. It's a different path, but we'll get there at her pace. Oakley grew into an amazing dog, and I think Miss Ava will, too.
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We're in Knoxville, Lisa. I'm not sure where Midway is, but I'll check it out. Ava and I would love to meet Uncle Xander and the girls! I hope to get Ava into lure coursing or agility when she's older (if she has the aptitude for it), so spectating would be fun.
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Midway is about 20 miles east of Knoxville according to the directions I printed.
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Wow, when I got driving directions, it said 97 miles. Near Jonesborough– is that right?
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Stick with the clicker and positive methods - she's just a puppy! If I get this right, you've only known each other for a month and a half? You've had dogs before, you know it takes enormous amounts of time and patience to help them develop into calm, lovely grown-ups, and some of them certainly need more guidance than others…
'Alpha' and 'dominant', by the way, are labels that trainers nowadays have abandoned, based on theories they have debunked. Your puppy has various issues which all have a cause, and placing them all under a general 'dominance' or 'stubbornness' label can only, in my opinion, distract from the solution and make you feel like she's voluntarily antagonising you.
I have only used positive reinforcement with Ava. I parted ways with the trainer who wanted to use a choke collar, because I wasn't on board with her methods. Ava has multiple issues, and we are treating each one independently, using desensitization therapy, clicker training and other positive techniques. I only did this after consulting with a board-certified veterinary behaviorist, who diagnosed Ava. We don't know to what degree these solutions will work or how long they will take, but I am hopeful.
I know that two months is not a lot of time, but when you have a puppy that can be neither confined nor left alone and daycare is not an option, the perspective shifts. I can't go to the grocery store… the pharmacy... or the bank without a dog sitter. I can't even take a shower, because Ava goes nuts with doors closed. Crating or babygating her an hour is not yet possible, because a setback could regress us to square one. I work with a demanding puppy leashed to my side. So while I have had dogs-- and Basenjis-- before, I have never had one like this. It's a new experience and a challenging one.
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I can't even take a shower, because Ava goes nuts with doors closed.
Oh, I have the fix for that one! Take her in the shower with you. She will soon decide being on her own in the bathroom is preferable to accompanying you!
Seriously, I know this must be a very trying time, and believe me, most people would have given up by now. I am sure the rewards at the end will be worth it, so hang in there! Did you ever try "borrowing" an older, quiet dog to keep her company?
