Help, we need advice re training classes please

[thunderbird8588]

Kristen,
thank you very much for your reply. What you say about him not respecting me is probably correct to a degree. When i check him verbaly i perceive that i am realy being firm, however the trainer tells me otherwise. I am firm in respect that i will work with him and don't tolerate bad behaviour, i'm consistant but still sometimes not getting it quite right.
I respect what you say about checking out Caeser but i do know a great many people now feel his alpha dog training is outdated and particularly unsuitable for basenjis. They are a breed that can over react and heavy handed methods could i feel drive them to bite. Today the trainer did hold Kwame down firmly after he went for another dog, he calmed and didn't respond the same way next time. However i'm not convinced it would work next time.
I hope you enjoy your puppy, are you getting a male or female ?

[eeeefarm]

It's never a good idea to keep practicing something that is going wrong. Introducing distractions before the dog is solid on the behavior is indeed setting him up to fail, Can you successfully walk him near the other dogs and away on a slack leash without incident? That is obviously a prerequisite to him doing it off leash. I agree he needs to learn to focus on you, whatever method you employ to get that done. (and there are many)

[thunderbird8588]

eeeefarm, we can walk him near to the other dogs in training if we work realy hard, ie checking him on the lead and saying "Leave it !" before he starts. Today i told the trainer that i didn't want to repeat the excercise but she insisted. He was ok the second time but my instinct is telling me we're moving too fast.

[lvoss]

I am going to strongly disagree with Kristin and will say that sort of outdated thinking leads down a very bad path with basenjis.

I do think that Kwame needs to understand that there are better choices that he can make and that you will deal with the issue of other dogs and he has other jobs to do. As eeeefarm has stated if he is not successfully ignoring dogs on leash and making the decision to stay connected to you not because of the leash but because he chooses to then he is not ready for off leash work.

[kristen]

I am getting a female.

[kristen]

Like i said, i have NEVER been around a Basenji before and therefore have never had to deal with them. All i have trained are labs, boxers, rotti mixes and i have always found it helped me a lot with them so thank you for the insight. i do remember reading about the fact Basenjis need a kind hand i guess that just slipped my mind when i read this post. I am getting a Basenji because i have never had to train one before and i wanted a nice challenge and i think the breed is beautiful and i am so very excited to welcome my little girl home at the end of the month. thanks again.

[krunzer]

Is Kwame food motivated? Hot dogs, pepperonis, smoked salmon, cheese? Will something like this distract him totally from another dog and get him to focus solely on you? You want to make sure that he is looking at your face and not the treat also before he gets the treat, this will teach him to look to you to see what he is supposed to do. I agree that a Basenji is NOT a normal dog, for training reasons and personality. These guys have a lot going on in their heads and will out-think you. Good luck with your training.

[agilebasenji]

I have to reiterate the Control Unleashed suggestion. There are also a couple of DVD's and there is also a new puppy book just out. You can also join the CU list (yahoo groups) and possibly find a CU trainer, or like-minded person near you. It sounds like the trainer is having you do exercises Kwame just isn't quite ready for. Unfortunate.

[agilebasenji]

@kristen:

Like i said, i have NEVER been around a Basenji before and therefore have never had to deal with them. All i have trained are labs, boxers, rotti mixes and i have always found it helped me a lot with them so thank you for the insight. i do remember reading about the fact Basenjis need a kind hand i guess that just slipped my mind when i read this post. I am getting a Basenji because i have never had to train one before and i wanted a nice challenge and i think the breed is beautiful and i am so very excited to welcome my little girl home at the end of the month. thanks again.

I think you're in for a wild ride and a major learning curve, if you're open to it. Basenjis to tend to be high-spirited, and those of us who love the breed appreciate that about them. They are very independent minded and do not like being man-handled. They quite resent being forced into a "sit" for example. However, with clicker training, I've found the basenjis to be eager and clever. They like figuring out the puzzle/game and become quite pleased with themselves when they learn a new trick. Besides, it's WAY more fun to train this way. If you're open to it, try browsing your local library for any books by:
Karen Pryor
Patricia McConnell
Suzanne Clothier
Pat Miller
Jean Donaldson
Jane killion
Leslie McDivett

There are several other authors, but those are the ones that I think my local library system has.

[eeeefarm]

I second the clicker training suggestion…....for any breed, or for that matter, critter. It is the most precise way to indicate what behaviour you are looking for. Done correctly, it is very quick. Once you have understanding, i,e, the behaviour is on cue, discipline is a different matter. Basenjis are quick to understand what you want (regardless of training method), but getting their cooperation is another thing. If you have worked with cats at all, you will understand what I mean. The trick is to make the dog want to please you, not so easy with a dog that really doesn't give a rat's patootie whether you are happy with his behaviour or not. (granted, some Basenjis are more interested in pleasing you than others, but "biddable" is not a Basenji strong point!) Food rewards work well for Basenjis, but aren't the answer to all problems. I do believe in letting the dog know there are consequences when he crosses the line. (of course, he must have a clear understanding of where the line is!)

[Moth]

Is he just being overstimulated and reactive because he is on lead? Some dogs are leash reactive. So that could be part of the problem.

Our boy also started coming more into his own around 12-13 months and began testing me more…so that could also be at play.

I just got a book called Behavior Adjustment Training by Grisha Steward it talks about working with your dog to modify behaviors like that that can be rooted in fear, frustration, and aggression. I like what I have read so far and it has very nice illustrations to help you out as well. Maybe you can check it out and see if there is something in there for you and Kwame.

Patience...you have a teenage boy on your hands

[agilebasenji]

moth-
let me know how the BAT works for you. i keep hearing about it and keep meaning to learn more about it, but so far i have not. i think most of the stuff i've heard is good stuff.

[thunderbird8588]

@krunzer:

Is Kwame food motivated? Hot dogs, pepperonis, smoked salmon, cheese? Will something like this distract him totally from another dog and get him to focus solely on you? You want to make sure that he is looking at your face and not the treat also before he gets the treat, this will teach him to look to you to see what he is supposed to do. I agree that a Basenji is NOT a normal dog, for training reasons and personality. These guys have a lot going on in their heads and will out-think you. Good luck with your training.

Kwame is very motivated by food, however it's very difficult to get him to focus on anything other than the other dog. I need to do some work on getting him to focus.

[thunderbird8588]

@Moth:

Is he just being overstimulated and reactive because he is on lead? Some dogs are leash reactive. So that could be part of the problem.

Our boy also started coming more into his own around 12-13 months and began testing me more…so that could also be at play.

I just got a book called Behavior Adjustment Training by Grisha Steward it talks about working with your dog to modify behaviors like that that can be rooted in fear, frustration, and aggression. I like what I have read so far and it has very nice illustrations to help you out as well. Maybe you can check it out and see if there is something in there for you and Kwame.

Patience...you have a teenage boy on your hands

Yes i know what you mean about a teenage boy,lol
He is worse on the lead , definately and had always been fine on the rare occasions we manage an off lead walk. However three times in class he has gone for other dogs , he also began to growl at another dog whilst out and off lead just on a walk.

[thunderbird8588]

@agilebasenji:

I have to reiterate the Control Unleashed suggestion. There are also a couple of DVD's and there is also a new puppy book just out. You can also join the CU list (yahoo groups) and possibly find a CU trainer, or like-minded person near you. It sounds like the trainer is having you do exercises Kwame just isn't quite ready for. Unfortunate.

Thank you, i will most certainly buy the book and look into the yahoo group, nothing to lose

[Moth]

@thunderbird8588:

Yes i know what you mean about a teenage boy,lol
He is worse on the lead , definately and had always been fine on the rare occasions we manage an off lead walk. However three times in class he has gone for other dogs , he also began to growl at another dog whilst out and off lead just on a walk.

BAT sounds like a good fit for this…she talks about dog to dog aggression and reactivity and how to teach the dog other behavior instead of becoming overstimulated and reactive.

[Moth]

@agilebasenji:

moth-
let me know how the BAT works for you. i keep hearing about it and keep meaning to learn more about it, but so far i have not. i think most of the stuff i've heard is good stuff.

I can post a review once I have finished reading it… Want to maybe apply some of it to teach my two to be less reactive with out cat in certain situations.

I too have heard only good things about this from other trainers.

[Nemo]

@Moth:

BAT sounds like a good fit for this…she talks about dog to dog aggression and reactivity and how to teach the dog other behavior instead of becoming overstimulated and reactive.

I agree. I finished the book a little while a go. They have a Yahoo group too. It's very complimentary to Control Unleashed. The BAT book has lots of examples of how to do setups and management on everyday walks.

[Patty]

Shelley, I've been off forum for a few days and was dismayed that you're having these problems - I would agree with Ivoss and I would stop taking him to these classes until you can get him focus on you. I can see that you instinctively feel this too. I have read Control Unleashed since I first saw it recommended by Ivoss on this forum and it all makes sense to me. I'm now going to get the BAT book too. When training him use some extra special titbit that he doesn't normally have. It also helps him to focus if you start hand feeding him for a while. I know it can be tedious to have to do this but you'll find a difference.

You say the trainer had some success in holding Kwame down but please don't be tempted to try it - you can spoil a Basenji relationship like that.

Have you talked with Victoria about this?

[thunderbird8588]

thank you so much for everyones replies, it is much appreciated, sometimes it can feel like you are the only one in the world with the problems although of course you know that you aren't realy.
As an update for a while i have started to dread the training class which i was surprised to feel as it's been such a positive experience with Malaika.
I felt on Saturday that we were being asked to do something Kwame wasn't capable of, it makes sense as Ivoss pointed out that if he's not reliable on lead then he's certainly not going to be off.
I have seen him get gradualy worse at class and it is no longer a positive experience for either of us.
To a degree we did trust the trainer as Malaika has done so well and realy enjoys her classes, however yes instinctively i know it's not the right enviroment for Kwame at present.
The plan is to work on getting Kwame to focus on us and reward him with food whilst approaching another dog or noisy large vehicle that he fancies tackling, trying to drum into him that something pleasant happens during these times.
I am going to order the control unleashed book to start with and also the other books reccomended by members.
We are going to stop with the classes for Kwame at present.
Victoria is aware of the situation