Fighting among my basejis

[DebraDownSouth]

@Patty:

Debra,
1::Perhaps you need to read this string tomorrow morning, when minds are fresh.

2:;Why don't I give treats in crates? Well Debra, you didn't ask me that question, but let me give you the answer: crates don't work well for my girls.
3::And your thoughts on Rawhide? Well, you don't explain why you consider these treats that are sold everyday in the doggy treat aisle to be so horrible!?! You just imply that I'm giving them to my dogs to kill them? Perhaps you could have elaborated politely what your concerns are about rawhide, to educate me and others that are reading this string?

4::I have four children that I'm fiercely proud of.

5::Or, for this forum: happy, stable, basenjis. Debra, It is NOT for you to factually declare that the OP and/or the Rescue Organization created this "problem".

It is not for any of us to tell another basenji owner that crating is a "solution". That having basenjis sleep with, or without humans, is the IDEAL night time ritual. That giving them rawhide or peanut butter IS better. Raw diet or Kibble? We must all experiment, and then we have to individually choose the best course for our dogs and for our families. But whatever decision we make, the answer is not simply black or white, or for this forum… the answer is not simply black and white, red and white, brindle, trindle, or tri.
Patty

First, Patty I wasn't foggy when I read it.

Second I said crates OR separate. :::::Why not give them peace in separate rooms or crates or crate her til they are done. :::::

Third, I was brief on rawhides because I have posted on it adnauseum and really figured you had already read it. However, even if you didn't, you can put rawhide, dogs, dangers into google and get it pretty fast. It is not an OPINION that dogs die, end up impacted and have surgery due to them. Your dig about them on the supermarket shelf– so are cigarettes. So are many harmful things. Not being ILLEGAL to sell does not equate with good. But you knew that. However, will post tons of info at end.

Fourth, There is a huge difference between parenting styles and dangers. Your tirade shows an inability to separate FACTS from opinions, so let me be clear. I can unequivocally tell you that research PROVES breast feeding is healthier. But I wouldn't ever say a parent is bad because for whatever reasons they don't do it. You seem to confuse presenting people with FACTS with something else. Ditto on the rest. Research proves/disproves old things, we all do the best we can hopefully when raising kids. But I never got mad or threw a tantrum if someone offered me information that MIGHT help me be a better parent. I used my head to evaluate the value. You seem, again, to think that people simply having information/facts/research is an insult to you and your ways.

Fifth, yeah it is for me to declare that the rescue was WRONG to do this placement. As a long time rescue person with a boat load of experience with dog-on-dog aggressive breeds, it IS for me to say they were wrong because it is not only my opinion, but it was very important to me that the OP shift from labeling the dog the problem or bad one or whatever and realize that the HUMANS shoved this dog into a situation that they should have known was not likely to work; that the HUMANS created an environment where a dog who has proven not to like other females in the home is forced to live with one. You bet it is for me or anyone else who thinks it to say it. Blaming a dog for how it is instead of saying WOW I messed up and the rescue messed up with this placement helps the OP to look at things not in blaming the dog but in understanding who created it. And since you like throwing children into it, I feel the same way when some parent is out with a tired cranky toddler doing their nails and screaming at the child for misbehaving. TAKE THE CHILD THE HELL HOME AND LET IT SLEEP. Schedule your non-crisis outings for when the child is rested or you have help entertaining them.

And finally, it is also for me to say what I think when someone suggests things that are detrimental or dangerous. I am sorry if my concern for the dogs and the OP overrides any desire to make nice and agree with advice that is unlikely to be helpful, in fact add a new issue (another dog) to it, and followed by your own training methods that continue to keep your dogs in stress rather than just manage the whole situation.

MANY times I have posted opinions and had others disagree. Often others have thought of an angle I didn't see. Posting opinions in forums presents us with the opportunity to teach and to learn and to consider other options. Any time your need to post and have people agree so you don't get your panties in a wad is greater than actually helping the person asking for it, something is wrong.

Now, you want to discuss my advice and where it was wrong, please do so. But try to leave the tirades out of it.

And again, for the rawhide, I was not trying to be snarky with you. I really was simply trying to not continue to beat a dead horse I have beaten a dozen times here in this forum already and one which is easily found on your own.

:::: old post on it:
1. Pet Health Info
FROM: >>Seaside Animal Care was recently awarded the 1999 National Practice of Excellence Award from Veterinary Medical Publishing and an educational grant from Pfizer. We are one of just over 50 practices ever to receive this honor!<<

WE DO NOT RECOMMEND GIVING YOUR PETS RAWHIDE CHEWS. They expand when wet and are the number one cause of intestinal obstruction at our hospital. They are poorly effective at "cleaning the teeth". Instead, we recommend chew-safe toys such as Nylabone? and Kong? products. Contact the hospital for additional information when selecting safe chew-toys for your loved one.<<

While I find it LUDICROUS that they first state they are harmless then say they have seen it ALL, this does indeed support that they are not uncommon :
2. >>From the
AAHA: American Animal Hospital Association
Miscellaneous Pet Care: Are raw hide chews safe?

Rawhide chews are pretty harmless. The problems come when they swallow them whole. They either choke on them, or the rawhide balls up in the stomach and causes gastritis or blockage. We've seen it all. Moderation is the key. One every once in a while is OK, but they shouldn't be included as a regular toy or part of the diet. In addition it's usually best to supervise or at least be nearby when your pet is chewing on any toy. <<

3. >> Diet - Treats and Snacks (Vetinfo, Dr Mike)
It is interesting to me that a number of veterinarians I have spoken with do say that they have seen problems associated with these toys. Their experience differs from mine. I practice in a rural area and sometimes I think that I just don't have enough patients to see all the problems that vets who practice in more crowded areas do. <<

4. OMG, they sell it yet their vets admit it is dangerous!!!
Acme Pet - Pet Health Questions Ask Acme Pet'sExperts

Q. I have a one year old mix JRT, she is a great dog. But the problem I have with her is that, whenever I give her a chewy like those basted sticks. I have to watch her because she will make it all soft, not bite a piece and eat it. She makes it soft and swallows half while she is still chewing the other end. She has almost choked on me twice. This happens with the square chewees too.

A. I would suggest you not give them to her anymore. Many dogs die of intestinal obstruction each year due to rawhide. Find something else, which is safer, to give her.<<

5. petcare
Okay, this is a petstore, not a vet but thought their concern worth noting!

In addition, we don't carry rawhide chews in order to assure the safest play experience for your pet. Rawhide chews, when gobbled or eaten in large quantities, can cause choking or possible obstruction in dogs. <<

6. vet@dog - Holidays - Chocolate and other dangerous goodies
FROM:
Dr. Lucy L. Pinkston, D.V.M.

Rawhide chews can lodge in the throat and cause choking, or a large piece may be swallowed, scraping and irritating the throat and esophagus on the way down. Once in the stomach or intestinal tract, a large piece of rawhide can also create a physical obstruction. An additional danger that is less widely known is the practice, in some countries, of using an arsenic-based preservative in the processing of rawhide toys. We recommend that, if you do purchase these products, stick to brands processed in the U.S. There has also been a recent FDA alert about the risk of Salmonella accociated with dog chew products made from pork or beef-derived materials: refer to the FDA advisory or call 1-888-INFO-FDA. See below (discussion on pigs' ears) for more details.<<

So the bottom line is, if it is SOMETIMES, even rarely, dangerous, and it isn't NECESSARY, why do it? Your choice, but lets have the facts to use to decide with.:::::::

[YodelDogs]

@MacPack:

You might consider re-homing your older female; it sounds like, though she has been there longer, that she is the 'odd man out'. She might find happiness as an only dog in a new situation. I know the idea of rehoming any of your dogs, especially the older one, probably seems unthinkable, please consider it.

I agree with this. It isn't fair to keep dogs that obviously hate one another in the same household. Things will always be tense and none of the dogs, nor any humans in the household, ever truly be able to relax. This is unhealthy for all parties involved.

It would be wise to consider either rehoming the older dog into an only-dog household or rehome both of the younger ones and keep the older dog as your only pet. I have rehomed many dogs and it is never easy to let go. But once the dog is in it's new home and I see that is it happier it is easier to deal with emotionally.

[nomrbddgs]

Can we stop making this about what I said, what you said and just answer the post! We've done this before and it gets us nowhere, we each have our own opinions.

[DebraDownSouth]

On the topic of neutering and whether it helps, I find this study a bit surprising:

http://www.caninesports.com/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf

[eeeefarm]

I have heard about this, particularly the aggressive component. It certainly is counter intuitive. I would guess that a dog neutered later in life would show less difference to an intact, but most of us would suspect "more aggressive" compared to one neutered earlier, so that is an interesting finding. I know with horses that trainability is very high in stallions, but so is aggression compared to geldings. My own anecdotal experience with dogs has been that with three neutered later than normal in life it doesn't appear to have changed their temperaments in that regard. My bitches that were neutered relatively early have been my least aggressive. Interesting topic, for sure.

I concur with those who say once fighting has become intrenched it is likely better to re home one of the offenders. I do think it is often possible to head this sort of thing off if you nip it in the bud, but once there has been a nasty, serious clash, the line is crossed and I doubt it will ever be possible to trust these girls together (and girls are usually worse than boys once they have made up their minds).

[DebraDownSouth]

See, that's the thing– early neutered animals I have found so much less aggression. And while I KNOW that the stats on dog bites and the very high rate with unneutered males has as much to do with who typically owns them as it does with their being unneutered, I still have always found hormones play a role. There are studies on bitches spayed at certain times in heat cycle and very increased aggression. But this one is perplexing. Will be interested to see more peer reviews on it and studies.

[Patty]

Personally I'd separate these 2 girls. You've said yourself that it could end up them killing each other. Do you want this on your conscience? Basenjis, and especially bitches in my opinion, will fight to the death. I see no point in giving further advice as I'm not sure that there is any other solution.

I agree with Debra, if you don't have facilities where you can keep these girls apart, one should be rehomed and without any other dog . Which of course is a decision only you can make.

We do have some rescues here that just rehome dogs without assessing them or the prospective purchasers.

[sherryk]

Hi, my oldest girl was always laid back. When she walks into a room she almost floats thru it. The male and the young female always have to shoot off like rockets when they move from room to room. Kandi the young female always has to be with me. She follows me everywhere and hides behind me when sasha comes around. Sasha always starts the fights by walking in very slow and defensive. She always challenges kandi. Now all 3 basenjis are fighting for my attention by lying on my lap and switching places every 5 minutes. And yes, when they start to growl, i raise my voice and usually they will calm down. But just in the blink of an eye the worst fight can break out. The young female craves so much attention and the biggest problem is her and the male are so hyper, when they are settled down everyone is fine. And yes like you i love them all so much that i cannot imagine rehoming any of them. I do let them know i am the alpha dog in the pack and they do respect this. If the 2 girls could just stop challenges . By the way the young female is super charged. She never stops playing. Since she came she sleepsin my bed every night while the older female sleeps with my daughter. The male goes back and forth to keep peace. We have to keep the bedroom doors shut or they will all keep running back and forth and fight. And you should hear them growl at each other thru the door.

[tanza]

IMO you should re-home the younger female. IMO it is not fair to the one that was there first to have to defend her territory when she is clearly not happy about the new bitch in the home. It sounds, if I am reading this right that your older girl got along OK when just the male.

I have had to make those choices before, not easy, but it was the younger one that left each time, regardless if they were causing the problem or not

[jaclempner]

I have two basenjis - male and female, and a young mixed breed female. My basenjis lives on separate floors. The male was the first in the house. A year later I got the female so he would have a playmate and all was fine at first. But slowly the female started bullying him. I wish I had been more aware of it at first - I might have been able to intervene before it escalated to where it is now, but I can't let them in the same room. I'm convinced she would kill him if she could. He's terrified of her and not much of a fighter. She can be fierce. They both got along with the new dog at first, but then Rose started picking on her a bit. The luck here is that Gracie weighs 20 lbs more than Rose. She'll never start a fight, but can always stop it. As a result, Rose has learned not to pick on her, but she also won't play with her now that she's full grown because Grace has become too much for her with the size difference. The both played with Grace when she was small.

Because I have a multi-floor house I've been able to manage things with gates. I love them both so much that I didn't want to part with either of them. I will enjoy it, though, when the gates can come down.