I'm impressed! Nice skillset!
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I have been trying to decide whether to chip in my two cents here or not. I see both sides of this one, but I really wish people could make their points without being antagonistic.
A few thoughts….
Basenjis thrived in their native Congo because they were good at their jobs. The ones that weren't undoubtedly didn't get a lot of chances to pass on their genes. And they were not bred for "pretty"!
Sheepdog clubs in Canada have been trying to keep the Border Collie out of the CKC registry for some time because they all feel that once you start selecting for appearance you lose the working ability.
It is good in a lot of ways that we now have tests to determine nasty recessive genes and breed away from them. However, it is early days with DNA testing, and we must be careful we know what we are doing. Since the Fanconi's inheritance path is not fully understood, it is possible we could end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.
I am against puppy mills on principle, but if someone owns a dog and bitch with decent temperaments, why should they not produce a few offspring for the people who just want a nice companion animal and have no interest in high priced show dogs? Not all backyard breeders are ignorant of the health issues, and I think the OP indicated that the dog could be registered and that he had checked the health of the dogs produced by this breeder, so why go heavy handed with the criticism instead of simply asking a few questions to clarify the situation?
Many respected breeders (not necessarily Basenji breeders) I know started with a couple of individuals, produced some decent offspring, and went on to become breeding kennels. Many well known breeders do not take the proper consideration when arranging breedings, and are as much "in it for the buck" as the worst of puppy mills. (I know an example of this in a different breed......the breeder sometimes isn't even sure which dog nailed the bitch!) It cuts both ways!
JMHO.
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Welcome to you and Convict - that's a new name on me! I'm assuming he gets on well with your cat?
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@ Tanza and Debra Ok first ummm did you read my history Yea a veterinary technician by the way been one for 12 years so yea you have offended me right off by thinking i didn't ask the right questions and get proper paper work. As I had said I don't recall the breeding pairs names a
I don't give a flying fig if you are a veterinarian or the king of Siam… your very use of the term "Breeding pair" tells me you know absolutely NOTHING about responsible breeding. SO in my quest to not spend time where it is wasted, done.
but I really wish people could make their points without being antagonistic.
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I am against puppy mills on principle, but if someone owns a dog and bitch with decent temperaments, why should they not produce a few offspring for the people who just want a nice companion animal and have no interest in high priced show dogs? Not all backyard breeders are ignorant of the health issues, and I think the OP indicated that the dog could be registered and that he had checked the health of the dogs produced by this breeder,.Sorry but people supporting irresponsible breeding does not encourage me to be all warm and fuzzy.
And for the other… lets make a bet, okay? Let the OP post the sire and dam info. I will bet you that there is NO HEALTH TESTING on them, much less 2 or 3 generations of testing that a RESPONSIBLE breeder would have.
I'd explain the rest, but if you don't get the issue with breeding pets, I am not the temperament today that should be explaining it.
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Delete this Thread
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Sorry but people supporting irresponsible breeding does not encourage me to be all warm and fuzzy.
I would like to know your definition of "irresponsible breeding". I have personally witnessed…...over 40 years or so.....wonderful breeds of dogs totally messed up by breeders who should know better. (not "backyard breeders", either!) Judges who put up animals that can hardly hobble around the show ring do not improve this situation!
Collies used to have some brain space in their heads before "pencil" heads came into vogue. GSD's used to be rugged, sound dogs with sensible, calm temperaments, before extreme angulation became popular.....now the show dogs can barely hobble around the ring, and many have aberrations such as spinning. There are many other examples out there. So if we have multiple health problems in many breeds these days......problems nobody had ever heard of, 40 years ago.....well, who has been producing these lines over the years? Supposedly responsible breeders, that's who.
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Dutchmt, I think it is a shame if you leave because a couple of people were rude. I for one hope you change your mind and stick around.
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I would like to know your definition of "irresponsible breeding". I have personally witnessed…...over 40 years or so.....wonderful breeds of dogs totally messed up by breeders who should know better. (not "backyard breeders", either!) Judges who put up animals that can hardly hobble around the show ring do not improve this situation!
Collies used to have some brain space in their heads before "pencil" heads came into vogue. GSD's used to be rugged, sound dogs with sensible, calm temperaments, before extreme angulation became popular.....now the show dogs can barely hobble around the ring, and many have aberrations such as spinning. There are many other examples out there. So if we have multiple health problems in many breeds these days......problems nobody had ever heard of, 40 years ago.....well, who has been producing these lines over the years? Supposedly responsible breeders, that's who.
eeee we have tread this topic about into the ground. If you search the term responsible breeders on this forum, you will be able to find out exactly where each of us stands
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I am afraid to even mention anything about my two basenjis….. I don't won't to get dragged through the mud if I don't meet someones expectations...
Let's try to lighten up and tr to give more pleasant advice.... -
I don't think is about expectations as much as health… health is the third rail, but understandably so.
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I don't think is about expectations as much as health… health is the third rail, but understandably so.
I think most of us with Basenjis "get" the health issue and agree that breeding animals should be tested. What I take issue with is the harshness applied to a new forum member, and also the assumption that the breeder had not tested their dogs. The polite approach would have been to ask. (apart from anything else, it is awkward to apologize after the fact if they had been!)
In my experience it is far better to gently make your point than to go into full attack mode. We have likely lost a potentially valuable member of this forum, and it was entirely unnecessary. This person had already acquired the dog. You may not approve of the breeder, but it is already a done deal that isn't going to change.
One of the difficulties at the moment is that the Fanconi's DNA test is a marker test and it is perfectly possible to be blindsided by an unexpected Fanconi offspring even from two "clears", and certainly from a clear and a carrier. DNA testing for a polygenic condition isn't infallible. Just ask anyone who has tried to breed Overo paint horses! (and the attendant lethal white problem).
We have testing for CID in Arabians, which is a simple autosomal recessive and HYPP in Quarter Horses where the gene is dominant. These conditions should be relatively easy to predict and avoid. But DNA testing is not infallible. My neighbour had a DNA test confirm a colt was homozygous for the dominant Tobiano colour…...but his first two offspring were solids!
Sorry for rambling on, but my point is that it takes time for everyone to get on board with new protocols, and it doesn't help if they have anecdotal evidence of the tests being faulty. You will persuade more people to listen and agree to avoid buying puppies from untested parents if you don't browbeat or belittle them. A forum should be a welcoming place for new members.
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The saying don't throw the baby out with the bathwater applies to your comments on breeders for the show ring. There are definitely needs to fix things in any breed, and we sure agree on GSDs and dogs like Bulldogs bred so massive they have to artificially inseminate and do c-sections. Great Britain and some European clubs are addressing these, hopefully we will follow.
And I am sorry, but perhaps many years of moderating pet boards, I pretty much know when someone is going to blow when his OBVIOUS spin is questioned. This person claims to be a vet tech, has enough knowledge to KNOW that buying from a byb is going to be questioned, so LIES and says:
I got my boy from a small breeder in Kansas he's not a papered dog I wasn't really looking for that although he could be. I was looking more for over all health and temperament I know the line has been clean of disease but hasn't produced show quality which is fine by me to be honest I can't even recall the dam and sires name atm.
Come on, you really want to tell me the person researched KNOWS THE LINE and cannot give the sire and dam name? Please. I have some swamp land for you. If the OP had said, "I bought from a byb, move on" I'd have left the thread. But when they perpetrate an out and out lie, nope I call them on it. And I'll bet you dollars to donuts they will never post the sire and dam because they lied out their rear and got mad at being called on it. I am not going to let such crappola stand unquestioned for someone to read and assume you can get dogs from a byb with no registration numbers and actually have responsible breeding testing. But I'd have been really happy for the person to prove me wrong. Would be easy to do– post the names. I'd have apologized and congratulated them on their rare find.
On the breeding pets---occasionally you find someone who is impressively uninformed who actually doesn't know they are messing up, and when presented with info, work to change things. But in all honesty, in this age of the internet, if a person can find this forum, they also could easily have found info on responsible breeding. The bottom line is that most people who CARE enough to do generations of health testing--and NO that isn't just fanconi!!!-- also care enough to work to improve the breed. They may not even be in the show ring. I know many breeders who get working titles on their dogs (and I am not talking about basic obedience or herding instinct-- I mean actual advanced titles to prove their dogs have ability to contribute) and not the show ring. But when you sit on your butt and breed your pets, I am willing to bet you won't find 1 in 500 who has several generations of testing behind them, evaluations by judges or breeders on the dog, etc. So ask yourself-- why are they breeding? TO produce pets to sell. Because they want Muffy to have just one litter. Because their friends think their dog is cute and want one. How can you think that is responsible?
You want to buy from them? Fine. But be honest enough to say so and move on. Heck, I BOUGHT a chow from a freaking flea market. They asked for $150, I gave them $75 and then spent over $200 to vet/spay and place in a home. Pure white pup (they thought white, didn't know enough to know creams start out white), would have been sold to breed. Can I justify it really though other than to say I could not bear to not take her? No. My old chow Bridget--- back yard breeder, long before the internet but I knew better. They swore OOPS litter and were spay/neutering. Can I justify that one? No. I was on my 5th year of fertility drugs and surgeries, just had the 4th doctor tell me I'd never get pregnant and I was walking out of his office and the person was walking in with a chow puppy they were delivering to someone. Impulse-- drove to NJ (I was in PA) and got a pup. No excuses. And I spent over $7,000 in 10 yrs on surgeries for her. Yeah, I paid heavily. But I admit what I did and I don't lie and try to tell anyone ever that it was okay. Even as a breeder I have made some MAJOR mistakes. And I own them and I make no excuses.
But I'll tell you what... go work in rescue. Spend one month, just one day a week, volunteering at your local shelter-- groom, walk, play with, love and then hold dogs being euthanized for lack of homes. Just one month. That's all I ask. THEN you judge me for my fury at people throwing in out and out lies to justify buying from a byb/petstore/puppymill.
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I am afraid to even mention anything about my two basenjis….. I don't won't to get dragged through the mud if I don't meet someones expectations...
Let's try to lighten up and tr to give more pleasant advice....If you got them from a byb/puppymill/petstore and you are honest, and don't try to pretend what you did helps the breed, and are aware your money helped them keep doing it… no one, not even me, is going to be mean to you. If you have pets with no health testing behind them and plan to breed them, fasten you seat belt for a bumpy ride. And perhaps you haven't been here long enough to know I got my first 2 from a breeder that it turns out lied about many things and because we were FRIENDS, I didn't do the research I should have. It was good honest responsible breeders who gave me the info when I asked after finding out she lied about some critical things. It ended the friendship because even if I got over her lying to ME, I could never forgive her for breeding irresponsibly.
Bottom line...I MESSED UP. But I spayed both dogs. Even the first one that got her Championship. We all make mistakes, the difference is whether you stand up or lie.
I don't mean to scare or turn off good folks. I just hate someone blowing smoke and assuming everyone is either too stupid to know better or too polite to say anything.
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But I'll tell you what… go work in rescue. Spend one month, just one day a week, volunteering at your local shelter-- groom, walk, play with, love and then hold dogs being euthanized for lack of homes. Just one month. That's all I ask. THEN you judge me for my fury at people throwing in out and out lies to justify buying from a byb/petstore/puppymill.
Debra, I understand that you are passionate about this issue. I am very aware of the problem. My niece is a vet and has had to euthanize such dogs. I've helped out with unwanted and sick horses, more than dogs, but unfortunately for them, unwanted horses mostly end up in the meat market. Dogs and cats go to shelters in the vain hope of finding a home. The problem isn't only irresponsible breeders, it is also uneducated, impulsive people who buy totally unsuitable dogs, then discard them when they don't work out. (I know, a good breeder wouldn't sell to such people, but they can fool you!)
I have a friend who is in another breed. She started with one bitch. She bred her because she wanted a pup from her. My friend was educated in all facets of her breed, including health issues, and planned her breeding accordingly. My friend wasn't into showing, but the litter were quality dogs and some went to show homes. My friend has since gotten involved in showing and has done well. She expanded her kennel and has a good reputation. My point is that she was not an irresponsible breeder when she began with that one bitch, so there are exceptions to your assertion that anyone who isn't in the show ring is irresponsible.
You ask "why are they breeding?" If you have a bitch you particularly like, perhaps you want a pup from her for yourself. Hard to ensure only one puppy is conceived, so obviously you need to do something with the rest. (horse owners have it easier…..I have two horses standing in the field behind my house that are the offspring of a mare I particularly liked. They are not and never have been for sale) The people I bought my Border Collie from had a nice working bitch and wanted a pup to succeed her as farm dog. They sold the excess pups and I was lucky enough to obtain the best, most loyal dog I have ever owned.
I didn't consider the OP's response to be lying. As far as knowing the sire and dam names, I can't remember that information about any of the Basenjis I have owned without looking it up, and to be honest, I would be hard put to give their registered names without running upstairs to check their papers. People not into showing don't fuss much about such things once they have bought the dog.
In any case, there are better ways of telling someone you don't approve of their actions. Anger doesn't help you or educate them. A better approach might have been to ask the OP whether the sire and dam had been tested for Fanconi, PRA, PPM, etc. and see what response he would give. If it was the one you expected, that might be the right time for the lecture. But hopefully delivered in a civil tone, so that you don't turn people off of your very important message.
O.K. off my soapbox now....
Oh, BTW, yes, of course there are more issues in Basenjis than Fanconi, but do you happen to know if anyone is looking into the role that environment has in determining phenotype? There are just too many anomalies to believe that genotype is the whole story here. Research into epigenetics may yet enlighten us as to the reasons....
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First, your friend–- most breeders sell on either limited registration to pet homes, unless this was a long time ago. So she learned more, got involved. That still doesn't mean she was responsible to create a litter to get one pet puppy. It really does not. As for going to show homes, count me skeptical that REAL show homes would purchase a puppy from a pet breeder, even with health testing, UNLESS that pup came from a superior pedigree.
So okay, if you get a pup from a superior pedigree, AND there are generations of health testing, AND you do your health testing... is it then RESPONSIBLE to breed just because you want a pet pup from that bitch? My answer is still "probably not"--not unless you have responsible breeders/show folks wanting pups for show, not pets, out of that litter. If the intent of a litter is to produce pets, to me, it is not responsible. Some day perhaps we won't be euthanizing millions of pets a year in this country. Until then, breeding to create pets is not responsible to me.
As for the OP, perhaps I am either more cynical or more experienced on boards than you-- but the song and dance post was chocked full of flags. You don't KNOW THE LINE and not know the names of a dog. You don't research and KNOW the LINE is healthy and not know the names. Several years down the road yeah, you might forget. But this person would have us believe he researched the line and you don't spend time researching a pedigree, checking health clearances, and not remember the names. If this person wasn't lying, they'd have posted the sire and dam and told me to go bite myself.
On horses... there are no more slaughter houses for horses in the USA and I thought it was illegal to ship them for slaughter for humans and too expensive for dog food. (But I did get my daughter's pony after I asked them to reduce the price and they said "I get a $1 on the hoof, so that's the bottom price." That was almost 16 yrs ago though, even our local auction shut down as most their business used to be for slaughter.) Is there a big market in Canada for horse meat?
What do you mean about phenotype and environment anomalies? Nutrition and even climate effect changes on everything, but I am not aware of any actual anomalies. Most changes are due to preferences being bred into the dogs, slight and very slow changes occur due to environment over generations. Sounds like a good topic for another fresh thread, am curious what you are referring to.
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Its a mute point the lady clearly wants a fight let her have her way and continue thinking she knows more than everyone else. I refuse to continue this ego feeding she so desires. This all started because someone asked a simple question of where my dog came because of a possibility of it being related to other people's basenjis on the forum and I was honest and said that I received him from a small breeder in Kansas(and I could be wrong there as well cause um yea thinking about it it could be Kentucky I am horrible at remembering geography) and I can't recall the names of the two dogs oh so sorry that as a college student with the mounds of papers at my house I simply can't find it right away nor have the time to do so and yes I know I lack organization(and trust me i tried looking). Secondly it was the second litter(that I was told) of these two also two or three years apart (I can't remember which sorry again) my thought was the likely hood of relations would be slim as well these are not pups that come from champion lines that a majority of people are after so the chances may be even slimmer. That being said I did my end and did my research prior to even first contact then a whole lot more after contact then asked to see documentation of testing and such before purchase and have since dumped most of the information from my brain I can recall somethings but not all. Now could the breeder be a dishonest person sure but given the information I received I have to take it at face value will I test my dog for such diseases of course if nothing but to double check. Hence why I wont give out information on the breeder until I do so because the last thing we all want is this to come out as a puppy mill that dubbed me and someone else to be dubbed as well. But calling me a liar just because I can't recall information that is not necessary for my degree (nor is really all that important to me once said research has been done) yea not even going to bother with a statement on that. Now that I said my part I'm done I have three different computer certifications to study for as I test for them next week and the combined costs of even taking the tests whether I pass or fail(god forbid cause then I would not only have to take the test again but pay for it as well) is more than my tuition yea I have more important things to do than argue with someone on the internet.
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I don't want to get into this, honestly…but really? You can't remember if your dog came from Kansas or Kentucky? Didn't you have to go somewhere to pick him up? If it was an airport, didn't it say 'shipped from'? That is wierd...
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First, your friend–- most breeders sell on either limited registration to pet homes, unless this was a long time ago. So she learned more, got involved. That still doesn't mean she was responsible to create a litter to get one pet puppy. It really does not. As for going to show homes, count me skeptical that REAL show homes would purchase a puppy from a pet breeder, even with health testing, UNLESS that pup came from a superior pedigree.
Full disclosure, she got her bitch from a reputable breeder, the lines were very good, she had the help of the breeder selling the pups that went to show homes. She currently sells working dogs and show dogs, and she does try to restrict breeding dogs to prevent problem breeders. Like most responsible breeders, she will take back any dog that does not work out. However, it is hard to ensure people will do their due diligence once the dog has left your property.
So okay, if you get a pup from a superior pedigree, AND there are generations of health testing, AND you do your health testing… is it then RESPONSIBLE to breed just because you want a pet pup from that bitch? My answer is still "probably not"--not unless you have responsible breeders/show folks wanting pups for show, not pets, out of that litter. If the intent of a litter is to produce pets, to me, it is not responsible. Some day perhaps we won't be euthanizing millions of pets a year in this country. Until then, breeding to create pets is not responsible to me.
Sorry, I can't agree. Depending on the breed, some people want a nice dog with a good temperament and that can be hard to find in some breeds. Not everyone wants to show their dog but only wants a sound dog as a family pet…..and why shouldn't they?
On horses… there are no more slaughter houses for horses in the USA and I thought it was illegal to ship them for slaughter for humans and too expensive for dog food. (But I did get my daughter's pony after I asked them to reduce the price and they said "I get a $1 on the hoof, so that's the bottom price." That was almost 16 yrs ago though, even our local auction shut down as most their business used to be for slaughter.) Is there a big market in Canada for horse meat?
Yes, unfortunately there is. The U.S. law created a much bigger market here and trucks are arriving daily across the border with U.S. horses for slaughter. Coincidentally, the Toronto paper had an article about it in yesterday's edition. http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1032379–dirty-little-secret-canada-s-slaughter-industry-under-fire
What do you mean about phenotype and environment anomalies? Nutrition and even climate effect changes on everything, but I am not aware of any actual anomalies. Most changes are due to preferences being bred into the dogs, slight and very slow changes occur due to environment over generations. Sounds like a good topic for another fresh thread, am curious what you are referring to.
Some Basenjis have tested differently on retesting. I would consider that an anomaly, although it is always possible the testing went awry. There is research being done in humans to look into the way genes are expressed in different environments…...twin studies, and the like.....and the findings are fascinating! Exactly the same genotype may express a different phenotype in a different environment (e.g. city vs country) I am wondering (and I suppose there is no way to know) how prevalent Fanconi's was in Africa? And whether our environment has somehow changed the expression of the gene.
http://www.sciencemag.org/site/feature/plus/sfg/resources/res_epigenetics.xhtml
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090412081315.htm
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Now that I said my part I'm done I have three different computer certifications to study for as I test for them next week and the combined costs of even taking the tests whether I pass or fail(god forbid cause then I would not only have to take the test again but pay for it as well) is more than my tuition yea I have more important things to do than argue with someone on the internet.
I certainly understand what it is like to be bogged down with studies…...and I sympathize. I'm also sorry you didn't get a better reception on this forum and I do hope you will stick around.
I personally don't think it is fair ball to call someone a liar without proof.....and even then, it isn't very polite! Best of luck with your Basenji. I'm glad to hear you will have him tested.
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@ Querus You had a good point and didn't even think to look. He was air shipped and that paper I did find while looking for his linage papers I went back and grabbed it It says Kansas so I was right and it has the breeder information so I can look up his stuff once again so thanks it will have to wait till after next week though.
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Good detective work Dutch…to find out more about your little guy, once you have his parent's registered names you can check here for more info about his lines:
http://www.pedigrees.zandebasenjis.com/
and here for more information about the testing in his lines:
