@Saving LOL, @JENGOSMonkey posted the perfect meme: Basenji pup, T-Rex, Basenji adult Wish I could find it!
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I am afraid to even mention anything about my two basenjis….. I don't won't to get dragged through the mud if I don't meet someones expectations...
Let's try to lighten up and tr to give more pleasant advice.... -
I don't think is about expectations as much as health… health is the third rail, but understandably so.
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I don't think is about expectations as much as health… health is the third rail, but understandably so.
I think most of us with Basenjis "get" the health issue and agree that breeding animals should be tested. What I take issue with is the harshness applied to a new forum member, and also the assumption that the breeder had not tested their dogs. The polite approach would have been to ask. (apart from anything else, it is awkward to apologize after the fact if they had been!)
In my experience it is far better to gently make your point than to go into full attack mode. We have likely lost a potentially valuable member of this forum, and it was entirely unnecessary. This person had already acquired the dog. You may not approve of the breeder, but it is already a done deal that isn't going to change.
One of the difficulties at the moment is that the Fanconi's DNA test is a marker test and it is perfectly possible to be blindsided by an unexpected Fanconi offspring even from two "clears", and certainly from a clear and a carrier. DNA testing for a polygenic condition isn't infallible. Just ask anyone who has tried to breed Overo paint horses! (and the attendant lethal white problem).
We have testing for CID in Arabians, which is a simple autosomal recessive and HYPP in Quarter Horses where the gene is dominant. These conditions should be relatively easy to predict and avoid. But DNA testing is not infallible. My neighbour had a DNA test confirm a colt was homozygous for the dominant Tobiano colour…...but his first two offspring were solids!
Sorry for rambling on, but my point is that it takes time for everyone to get on board with new protocols, and it doesn't help if they have anecdotal evidence of the tests being faulty. You will persuade more people to listen and agree to avoid buying puppies from untested parents if you don't browbeat or belittle them. A forum should be a welcoming place for new members.
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The saying don't throw the baby out with the bathwater applies to your comments on breeders for the show ring. There are definitely needs to fix things in any breed, and we sure agree on GSDs and dogs like Bulldogs bred so massive they have to artificially inseminate and do c-sections. Great Britain and some European clubs are addressing these, hopefully we will follow.
And I am sorry, but perhaps many years of moderating pet boards, I pretty much know when someone is going to blow when his OBVIOUS spin is questioned. This person claims to be a vet tech, has enough knowledge to KNOW that buying from a byb is going to be questioned, so LIES and says:
I got my boy from a small breeder in Kansas he's not a papered dog I wasn't really looking for that although he could be. I was looking more for over all health and temperament I know the line has been clean of disease but hasn't produced show quality which is fine by me to be honest I can't even recall the dam and sires name atm.
Come on, you really want to tell me the person researched KNOWS THE LINE and cannot give the sire and dam name? Please. I have some swamp land for you. If the OP had said, "I bought from a byb, move on" I'd have left the thread. But when they perpetrate an out and out lie, nope I call them on it. And I'll bet you dollars to donuts they will never post the sire and dam because they lied out their rear and got mad at being called on it. I am not going to let such crappola stand unquestioned for someone to read and assume you can get dogs from a byb with no registration numbers and actually have responsible breeding testing. But I'd have been really happy for the person to prove me wrong. Would be easy to do– post the names. I'd have apologized and congratulated them on their rare find.
On the breeding pets---occasionally you find someone who is impressively uninformed who actually doesn't know they are messing up, and when presented with info, work to change things. But in all honesty, in this age of the internet, if a person can find this forum, they also could easily have found info on responsible breeding. The bottom line is that most people who CARE enough to do generations of health testing--and NO that isn't just fanconi!!!-- also care enough to work to improve the breed. They may not even be in the show ring. I know many breeders who get working titles on their dogs (and I am not talking about basic obedience or herding instinct-- I mean actual advanced titles to prove their dogs have ability to contribute) and not the show ring. But when you sit on your butt and breed your pets, I am willing to bet you won't find 1 in 500 who has several generations of testing behind them, evaluations by judges or breeders on the dog, etc. So ask yourself-- why are they breeding? TO produce pets to sell. Because they want Muffy to have just one litter. Because their friends think their dog is cute and want one. How can you think that is responsible?
You want to buy from them? Fine. But be honest enough to say so and move on. Heck, I BOUGHT a chow from a freaking flea market. They asked for $150, I gave them $75 and then spent over $200 to vet/spay and place in a home. Pure white pup (they thought white, didn't know enough to know creams start out white), would have been sold to breed. Can I justify it really though other than to say I could not bear to not take her? No. My old chow Bridget--- back yard breeder, long before the internet but I knew better. They swore OOPS litter and were spay/neutering. Can I justify that one? No. I was on my 5th year of fertility drugs and surgeries, just had the 4th doctor tell me I'd never get pregnant and I was walking out of his office and the person was walking in with a chow puppy they were delivering to someone. Impulse-- drove to NJ (I was in PA) and got a pup. No excuses. And I spent over $7,000 in 10 yrs on surgeries for her. Yeah, I paid heavily. But I admit what I did and I don't lie and try to tell anyone ever that it was okay. Even as a breeder I have made some MAJOR mistakes. And I own them and I make no excuses.
But I'll tell you what... go work in rescue. Spend one month, just one day a week, volunteering at your local shelter-- groom, walk, play with, love and then hold dogs being euthanized for lack of homes. Just one month. That's all I ask. THEN you judge me for my fury at people throwing in out and out lies to justify buying from a byb/petstore/puppymill.
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I am afraid to even mention anything about my two basenjis….. I don't won't to get dragged through the mud if I don't meet someones expectations...
Let's try to lighten up and tr to give more pleasant advice....If you got them from a byb/puppymill/petstore and you are honest, and don't try to pretend what you did helps the breed, and are aware your money helped them keep doing it… no one, not even me, is going to be mean to you. If you have pets with no health testing behind them and plan to breed them, fasten you seat belt for a bumpy ride. And perhaps you haven't been here long enough to know I got my first 2 from a breeder that it turns out lied about many things and because we were FRIENDS, I didn't do the research I should have. It was good honest responsible breeders who gave me the info when I asked after finding out she lied about some critical things. It ended the friendship because even if I got over her lying to ME, I could never forgive her for breeding irresponsibly.
Bottom line...I MESSED UP. But I spayed both dogs. Even the first one that got her Championship. We all make mistakes, the difference is whether you stand up or lie.
I don't mean to scare or turn off good folks. I just hate someone blowing smoke and assuming everyone is either too stupid to know better or too polite to say anything.
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But I'll tell you what… go work in rescue. Spend one month, just one day a week, volunteering at your local shelter-- groom, walk, play with, love and then hold dogs being euthanized for lack of homes. Just one month. That's all I ask. THEN you judge me for my fury at people throwing in out and out lies to justify buying from a byb/petstore/puppymill.
Debra, I understand that you are passionate about this issue. I am very aware of the problem. My niece is a vet and has had to euthanize such dogs. I've helped out with unwanted and sick horses, more than dogs, but unfortunately for them, unwanted horses mostly end up in the meat market. Dogs and cats go to shelters in the vain hope of finding a home. The problem isn't only irresponsible breeders, it is also uneducated, impulsive people who buy totally unsuitable dogs, then discard them when they don't work out. (I know, a good breeder wouldn't sell to such people, but they can fool you!)
I have a friend who is in another breed. She started with one bitch. She bred her because she wanted a pup from her. My friend was educated in all facets of her breed, including health issues, and planned her breeding accordingly. My friend wasn't into showing, but the litter were quality dogs and some went to show homes. My friend has since gotten involved in showing and has done well. She expanded her kennel and has a good reputation. My point is that she was not an irresponsible breeder when she began with that one bitch, so there are exceptions to your assertion that anyone who isn't in the show ring is irresponsible.
You ask "why are they breeding?" If you have a bitch you particularly like, perhaps you want a pup from her for yourself. Hard to ensure only one puppy is conceived, so obviously you need to do something with the rest. (horse owners have it easier…..I have two horses standing in the field behind my house that are the offspring of a mare I particularly liked. They are not and never have been for sale) The people I bought my Border Collie from had a nice working bitch and wanted a pup to succeed her as farm dog. They sold the excess pups and I was lucky enough to obtain the best, most loyal dog I have ever owned.
I didn't consider the OP's response to be lying. As far as knowing the sire and dam names, I can't remember that information about any of the Basenjis I have owned without looking it up, and to be honest, I would be hard put to give their registered names without running upstairs to check their papers. People not into showing don't fuss much about such things once they have bought the dog.
In any case, there are better ways of telling someone you don't approve of their actions. Anger doesn't help you or educate them. A better approach might have been to ask the OP whether the sire and dam had been tested for Fanconi, PRA, PPM, etc. and see what response he would give. If it was the one you expected, that might be the right time for the lecture. But hopefully delivered in a civil tone, so that you don't turn people off of your very important message.
O.K. off my soapbox now....
Oh, BTW, yes, of course there are more issues in Basenjis than Fanconi, but do you happen to know if anyone is looking into the role that environment has in determining phenotype? There are just too many anomalies to believe that genotype is the whole story here. Research into epigenetics may yet enlighten us as to the reasons....
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First, your friend–- most breeders sell on either limited registration to pet homes, unless this was a long time ago. So she learned more, got involved. That still doesn't mean she was responsible to create a litter to get one pet puppy. It really does not. As for going to show homes, count me skeptical that REAL show homes would purchase a puppy from a pet breeder, even with health testing, UNLESS that pup came from a superior pedigree.
So okay, if you get a pup from a superior pedigree, AND there are generations of health testing, AND you do your health testing... is it then RESPONSIBLE to breed just because you want a pet pup from that bitch? My answer is still "probably not"--not unless you have responsible breeders/show folks wanting pups for show, not pets, out of that litter. If the intent of a litter is to produce pets, to me, it is not responsible. Some day perhaps we won't be euthanizing millions of pets a year in this country. Until then, breeding to create pets is not responsible to me.
As for the OP, perhaps I am either more cynical or more experienced on boards than you-- but the song and dance post was chocked full of flags. You don't KNOW THE LINE and not know the names of a dog. You don't research and KNOW the LINE is healthy and not know the names. Several years down the road yeah, you might forget. But this person would have us believe he researched the line and you don't spend time researching a pedigree, checking health clearances, and not remember the names. If this person wasn't lying, they'd have posted the sire and dam and told me to go bite myself.
On horses... there are no more slaughter houses for horses in the USA and I thought it was illegal to ship them for slaughter for humans and too expensive for dog food. (But I did get my daughter's pony after I asked them to reduce the price and they said "I get a $1 on the hoof, so that's the bottom price." That was almost 16 yrs ago though, even our local auction shut down as most their business used to be for slaughter.) Is there a big market in Canada for horse meat?
What do you mean about phenotype and environment anomalies? Nutrition and even climate effect changes on everything, but I am not aware of any actual anomalies. Most changes are due to preferences being bred into the dogs, slight and very slow changes occur due to environment over generations. Sounds like a good topic for another fresh thread, am curious what you are referring to.
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Its a mute point the lady clearly wants a fight let her have her way and continue thinking she knows more than everyone else. I refuse to continue this ego feeding she so desires. This all started because someone asked a simple question of where my dog came because of a possibility of it being related to other people's basenjis on the forum and I was honest and said that I received him from a small breeder in Kansas(and I could be wrong there as well cause um yea thinking about it it could be Kentucky I am horrible at remembering geography) and I can't recall the names of the two dogs oh so sorry that as a college student with the mounds of papers at my house I simply can't find it right away nor have the time to do so and yes I know I lack organization(and trust me i tried looking). Secondly it was the second litter(that I was told) of these two also two or three years apart (I can't remember which sorry again) my thought was the likely hood of relations would be slim as well these are not pups that come from champion lines that a majority of people are after so the chances may be even slimmer. That being said I did my end and did my research prior to even first contact then a whole lot more after contact then asked to see documentation of testing and such before purchase and have since dumped most of the information from my brain I can recall somethings but not all. Now could the breeder be a dishonest person sure but given the information I received I have to take it at face value will I test my dog for such diseases of course if nothing but to double check. Hence why I wont give out information on the breeder until I do so because the last thing we all want is this to come out as a puppy mill that dubbed me and someone else to be dubbed as well. But calling me a liar just because I can't recall information that is not necessary for my degree (nor is really all that important to me once said research has been done) yea not even going to bother with a statement on that. Now that I said my part I'm done I have three different computer certifications to study for as I test for them next week and the combined costs of even taking the tests whether I pass or fail(god forbid cause then I would not only have to take the test again but pay for it as well) is more than my tuition yea I have more important things to do than argue with someone on the internet.
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I don't want to get into this, honestly…but really? You can't remember if your dog came from Kansas or Kentucky? Didn't you have to go somewhere to pick him up? If it was an airport, didn't it say 'shipped from'? That is wierd...
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First, your friend–- most breeders sell on either limited registration to pet homes, unless this was a long time ago. So she learned more, got involved. That still doesn't mean she was responsible to create a litter to get one pet puppy. It really does not. As for going to show homes, count me skeptical that REAL show homes would purchase a puppy from a pet breeder, even with health testing, UNLESS that pup came from a superior pedigree.
Full disclosure, she got her bitch from a reputable breeder, the lines were very good, she had the help of the breeder selling the pups that went to show homes. She currently sells working dogs and show dogs, and she does try to restrict breeding dogs to prevent problem breeders. Like most responsible breeders, she will take back any dog that does not work out. However, it is hard to ensure people will do their due diligence once the dog has left your property.
So okay, if you get a pup from a superior pedigree, AND there are generations of health testing, AND you do your health testing… is it then RESPONSIBLE to breed just because you want a pet pup from that bitch? My answer is still "probably not"--not unless you have responsible breeders/show folks wanting pups for show, not pets, out of that litter. If the intent of a litter is to produce pets, to me, it is not responsible. Some day perhaps we won't be euthanizing millions of pets a year in this country. Until then, breeding to create pets is not responsible to me.
Sorry, I can't agree. Depending on the breed, some people want a nice dog with a good temperament and that can be hard to find in some breeds. Not everyone wants to show their dog but only wants a sound dog as a family pet…..and why shouldn't they?
On horses… there are no more slaughter houses for horses in the USA and I thought it was illegal to ship them for slaughter for humans and too expensive for dog food. (But I did get my daughter's pony after I asked them to reduce the price and they said "I get a $1 on the hoof, so that's the bottom price." That was almost 16 yrs ago though, even our local auction shut down as most their business used to be for slaughter.) Is there a big market in Canada for horse meat?
Yes, unfortunately there is. The U.S. law created a much bigger market here and trucks are arriving daily across the border with U.S. horses for slaughter. Coincidentally, the Toronto paper had an article about it in yesterday's edition. http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1032379–dirty-little-secret-canada-s-slaughter-industry-under-fire
What do you mean about phenotype and environment anomalies? Nutrition and even climate effect changes on everything, but I am not aware of any actual anomalies. Most changes are due to preferences being bred into the dogs, slight and very slow changes occur due to environment over generations. Sounds like a good topic for another fresh thread, am curious what you are referring to.
Some Basenjis have tested differently on retesting. I would consider that an anomaly, although it is always possible the testing went awry. There is research being done in humans to look into the way genes are expressed in different environments…...twin studies, and the like.....and the findings are fascinating! Exactly the same genotype may express a different phenotype in a different environment (e.g. city vs country) I am wondering (and I suppose there is no way to know) how prevalent Fanconi's was in Africa? And whether our environment has somehow changed the expression of the gene.
http://www.sciencemag.org/site/feature/plus/sfg/resources/res_epigenetics.xhtml
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090412081315.htm
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Now that I said my part I'm done I have three different computer certifications to study for as I test for them next week and the combined costs of even taking the tests whether I pass or fail(god forbid cause then I would not only have to take the test again but pay for it as well) is more than my tuition yea I have more important things to do than argue with someone on the internet.
I certainly understand what it is like to be bogged down with studies…...and I sympathize. I'm also sorry you didn't get a better reception on this forum and I do hope you will stick around.
I personally don't think it is fair ball to call someone a liar without proof.....and even then, it isn't very polite! Best of luck with your Basenji. I'm glad to hear you will have him tested.
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@ Querus You had a good point and didn't even think to look. He was air shipped and that paper I did find while looking for his linage papers I went back and grabbed it It says Kansas so I was right and it has the breeder information so I can look up his stuff once again so thanks it will have to wait till after next week though.
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Good detective work Dutch…to find out more about your little guy, once you have his parent's registered names you can check here for more info about his lines:
http://www.pedigrees.zandebasenjis.com/
and here for more information about the testing in his lines:
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Sorry, I can't agree. Depending on the breed, some people want a nice dog with a good temperament and that can be hard to find in some breeds. Not everyone wants to show their dog but only wants a sound dog as a family pet…..and why shouldn't they?
Yes, unfortunately there is. The U.S. law created a much bigger market
Some Basenjis have tested differently on retesting. I would consider that an anomaly, although it is always possible the testing went awry. There is research being done in humans to look into the way genes are expressed in different environments......twin studies, and the like.....and the findings are fascinating! Exactly the same genotype may express a different phenotype in a different environment (e.g. city vs country)
If you can't get a good temperament from a responsible breeder, something is wrong and byb breeding isn't the answer. You can get a PET from a responsible show breeder.
That makes me sick.
I read a few papers saying we essentially do nothing with the laws but protect US horses from being meat, yet up their abuse/neglect etc by not allowing unwanted/unsound horses from being humanely killed for "profit."You lost me. Environment doesn't effect or change the DNA on dogs being tested for Fanconi, nor is the very limited number tested with wrong results or those few who test clear/carrier that develop it really any type of anomaly– it is a marker test, not perfect and new.
Nor do twin studies show humans raised separate have different genes, just different development due to environment. That isn't different gene expression, that is environment variances resulting in development ie a fat twin and skinny one. A simple change in a fruit fly eye color being passed on is interesting, but they USE fruit flies due to their limited genes. Show me where a dog raised in Africa has brown eyes and same bitch/stud produce different color here, and I'll be impressed. Environment causes changes in plant expression and other things also. I still fail to see how that all relates to Basenjis and the DNA test. What am I missing?
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…. sat on it... counted to 10... tried to respond without snarkiness ...see next post.
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Its a mute point
FYI, it is "moot" not mute.
This all started because someone asked a simple question of where my dog came because of a possibility of it being related to other people's basenjis on the forum
It's a nice way of saying where did you get the dog.
I was honest and said that I received him from a small breeder in Kansas(and I could be wrong there as well cause um yea thinking about it it could be Kentucky I am horrible at remembering geography) and I can't recall the names of the two dogs oh so sorry that as a college student with the mounds of papers at my house
So you KNOW the line, health temperament–- but in reality you can't even recall where it came from? And you are a both a vet tech and in school. Busy schedule.
Secondly it was the second litter(that I was told) of these two also two or three years apart (I can't remember which sorry again) …That being said I did my end and did my research prior to even first contact then a whole lot more after contact then asked to see documentation of testing and such before purchase and have since dumped most of the information from my brain I can recall somethings but not all. Now could the breeder be a dishonest person sure but given the information I received I have to take it at face value
So the truth is, you evidently didn't do enough research to know what to ask, didn't get documentation and relied on the person, and what you consider doing your research really isn't that reliable or solid since you question if the breeder lied and whether you even know what you looked up. Further, to say you know a line, temperament and health was a gross exaggeration since you never met the dogs, much less many from the line, nor even know the pedigree. Does that about sum it up?
I want to apologize for saying you lied– perhaps I should have softened it to say grossly exaggerated or so maybe so uninformed you really thought the little you did was doing your homework. Hopefully you'll stick around and hang out with the nicer folks here enough to really learn so that if you ever decide to get another dog you will really know what to ask and how to verify.
Bottom line, you don't intend to breed, so wherever you got the dog from, you have it and all that matters at THIS point is that you are a good owner. There are many here who will help you if you need it. Even me. But I won't ever be quiet when people defend byb or pretend they really did research and KNOW something when I am pretty darn sure they don't. And if you post the parents and they are really some well tested dogs with known health and temperament, I'll write I am sorry and was wrong a 100 times.
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If you can't get a good temperament from a responsible breeder, something is wrong and byb breeding isn't the answer. You can get a PET from a responsible show breeder.
Perhaps in Basenjis you can. Some breeds…...e.g. GSD.....have become so exaggerated for the show ring it is hard to find any litter bred for show that is any good for working. Fortunately there is still a market for working dogs and you can obtain something decent from a breeder who specializes in turning out animals for police and service work, but it can be expensive. Not everyone who wants a pet has the budget or frankly the patience to look.
That makes me sick.
I read a few papers saying we essentially do nothing with the laws but protect US horses from being meat, yet up their abuse/neglect etc by not allowing unwanted/unsound horses from being humanely killed for "profit."The U.S. law is being circumvented and many U.S. horses are being sent for slaughter in either Canada or Mexico, so the law is not protecting horses but in fact is subjecting them to long trailer rides in inappropriate transport. Many die en route because of this. Better and more humane if they are killed close to home. There is no easy solution to the "surplus horse" problem. The lifespan of a well cared for horse is long and even winning race horses end up at slaughter houses once they are no longer useful.
You lost me. Environment doesn't effect or change the DNA on dogs being tested for Fanconi, nor is the very limited number tested with wrong results or those few who test clear/carrier that develop it really any type of anomaly– it is a marker test, not perfect and new.
Environment does effect the way genes are expressed. Cloning is proving that quite nicely. Same genes, different environment in utero, often different markings on the babe. I didn't mean the DNA changes, it doesn't. But you can get a different phenotype from the same genotype…..exactly the same DNA......which I find fascinating. Yes, thinking about it more, the marker testing changes are most likely mistakes, but there could also be something else at play here. In any case, an area worthy of more study, for sure.
Nor do twin studies show humans raised separate have different genes, just different development due to environment. That isn't different gene expression, that is environment variances resulting in development ie a fat twin and skinny one.
"Identical twins develop when a single fertilized egg splits in two, leading to two embryos. Because they both came from the combination of the same egg and sperm, they have identical DNA, barring the generally undetectable micromutations that begin as soon as cells start dividing. To a standard DNA analysis, they would be indistinguishable. Yet the parents of twins can usually tell them apart by subtle visual cues, and, while their fingerprints are generally similar, they are not identical."
http://www.forensic-evidence.com/site/ID/ID_Twins.html
This is the sort of subtle thing I mean…..same DNA, but slightly different expression of the gene due to environment. But the thing that jumped out at me from the epigenetic articles I linked to was this, "Diet and epigenetics appear to be closely linked." That got me thinking about the rise of many afflictions in our canines that used to be rare, if not unheard of.
I have always found genetics interesting. My neighbour breeds Paint horses, and before the DNA testing was available it was interesting to look at pedigrees and figure out the likely resulting coat colour from any particular breeding. Dominant was pretty straightforward, and so is simple recessive, but polygenetic, as in Overos, was always a crap shoot! Add to that the lethal white, which has blindsided more than one breeder when an outcross to a solid Quarterhorse produced one! Just when you think you are safe....
Really good explanation of polygenetic inheritance here: http://www.ashgi.org/articles/breeding_bingo.htm
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Yes but that is much like, lets say, diabetes. Identical twins… one eats right, the other eats horrible-- identical but one develops diabetes.
On the twins, btw, I recently read that they actually are NOT identical, that on closer examination there are in fact some differences and I think (have some projects so can't research at the moment and I forget) the issue was the division of the cells not so perfectly even as previously thought depending on when they split.
On polygenetic traits, yep, remember that from genetics classes long ago.
However, even in the womb, placenta placement can change nutrition and development--so maybe that is also enough to effect some phenotype expression changes. I have known quite a few identical twins-- maybe 10 sets. And while I could tell them apart, a lot was styles, weight and behaviors which most certainly have to do with other things, not really phenotype expression.
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I apologize to the OP for dragging this thread so far off topic! And I have started another thread if anyone wants to continue discussing genetics/epigenetics, as I find the subject fascinating.
http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?p=143403#post143403
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dutchmt.
Debra works in rescue. As I do. Sometimes, its just too much. Honestly, it hurts your heart what you see. She was sharp with you. If you stick around long enough, someone will push your button and you will be sharp. BUT we all learn so very much here. We all love the dogs we have and try to make sure they get the very best health testing done …if we know to do it BEFORE we buy them, great, if not, we cross our fingers, get them tested and learn where to get our next companion from. I hate puppymills. I hate uneducated byb or even educated folks who "just" want to breed pets. Too many dogs are not able to be rehomed to have that type of thinking be ok, IMO.
So, do let us know about the results of your health testing. We will cheer if its a good report, I do hope it is, and we will share info you will need if it isn't.
Anyway, stick around and learn. I learn something everyday here.
