@tanza
I'm definitely attending the next show as a recon trip. Not sure how the work here but if they're similarly easy to enter as the ones in the US, I do want to show Roux!
LOL that's a hilarious saying; I absolutely appreciate a smart lady over cluelessness haha 😛
What does it mean to add genes?
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Avongaras have made a significant impact on the gene pool, and not in the sense of one cross and quickly breeding away from. A number of long time breeders breed straight Avongaras. I was able to come up with a dozen serious breeders that have recently bred full Af litters, plus probably half again that many people working with them (ie, own one or two Avongaras that they keep intact, and work with the group.) Plus the overseas people.
Of the dozen I thought of right off, they’re pretty much all working together to a greater or lesser degree. The goal is to maintain an outcross gene pool, of good type and quality, which does offer significant value to the breed.
Newly imported Avongara stock would be particularly useful in maintaining a viable outcross group for the longer term, and some of the newer Avongara imports have already been incorporated. Others (like the ones in the nice pix Katie and Ethel had) show a lot of promise.
Most of the breeders I know using Avongara blends are not using one outcross and then diluting – they are using significant percentages of Avongara stock. Good examples from my region include the #3 producing brood bitch of all time, Ch Eldorado’s Ooh La La (38.625% Avongara from 3 separate crosses that incorporate 5 different Avongara founders.)
Or you can look at a stud dog I have used, Ch Wakan MicCookie http://www.wakanbasenjis.org/Micki%20collage%20jpg.jpg 31.25% Avongara and his littermate Ch Wakan Sugar Cookie http://www.wakanbasenjis.org/SugarCollage.jpg
My own favorite brood bitch, Itzyu Good Golly Miss Molly (call name Sally, long story), is 50% Af – the result of breeding two good half Afs together – dam of some very nice pups, with one ready to go out and on my FB page, and two on deck. The latter two are about 35% Af, from breeding to a dog that is 19.3125% African, with pups that are about 35% Af. The pups go back in 5 different lines, with each line going to one or more of five different Avongaras (Gangura, Diagba, Zamee, Mbliki, and Ngola.) It’s not cross once and out – it’s blend, and blend back, and blend back again.
I have full Afs in my kennel that also go back to Kposi and Elly, plus breeding rights on a Tambura kid (or possibly kids, another long story) and Renzi is also represented in my part Afs and in a number of dogs in this area.
These dogs have pedigrees that have been, and are being, used by many different breeders. Of the 87/88 imports, most of what got lost, was lost the first generation (Wele died in an accident, Renzi went sterile after one litter although his kids were used and are in a good number of Virginia pedigrees, Nabodio was in a pet home and did not produce pups when he was used as an older dog, one was not bred by choice, and one had pups with bite issues and was not bred down from.)
Diagba, Gangura, Zamee, Mbliki, Ngola, Elly, and to a lesser extent Kposi are pretty well represented in the gene pool – even Kposi, which is the rarest of the bunch, has full Af descendents with some linebreeding to her going on. I have dogs here that are 25% or more Gangura, Zamee, or Elly – just lost a Kposi grandson who has multiple kids in the gene pool - and there are many dogs out there that are 25% or more Mbliki or Diagba.
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Sponenberg has advised many breeders, in many species, on how to preserve their breeds. One frequently asked question is what to include in the registered breeding pool. His principle is simple. Include as many animals as possible of that breed, and do not include those that are not of that breed. He has a fairly detailed discussion of this, with examples, in his last book, Managing Breeds for a Secure Future, which is available from Amazon and from the ALBC. See particularly pages 20-23.
Itzyu, I'm glad you joined the discussion.
Without having easy access to the book to read about the bolded sentence, can you paraphrase what comments he has on how "animals of that breed" and "animals not of that breed" can be defined? I think that gets to the crux of some of the issues discussed here. -
Avongaras have made a significant impact on the gene pool, and not in the sense of one cross and quickly breeding away from. A number of long time breeders breed straight Avongaras.
Diagba, Gangura, Zamee, Mbliki, Ngola, Elly, and to a lesser extent Kposi are pretty well represented in the gene pool ? even Kposi, which is the rarest of the bunch, has full Af descendents with some linebreeding to her going on.
Can you help me understand your definitions of the above? I think that would be a useful context to further the discussion. What is a "significant impact" or what is "well represented"? This would help me understand the different perspectives on this.
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Itzyu, I'm glad you joined the discussion.
Without having easy access to the book to read about the bolded sentence, can you paraphrase what comments he has on how "animals of that breed" and "animals not of that breed" can be defined? I think that gets to the crux of some of the issues discussed here.It's really good to get the book - well worth buying and I strongly recommend it for anyone interested in Basenjis or any other land race breed of any species. See www.amazon.com or the ALBC website.
That said, ALBC has their books online at Google Books and you can read pages 20-23 at http://books.google.com/books?id=GmsDwDuuP2cC&pg=PT100&lpg=PT100&dq=sponenberg+preserving+breeds&source=bl&ots=6RiX-84Svh&sig=LZhXlf8_auMwBfmuShgk9nDfVTY&hl=en&ei=EWtMTti5Ls25tgelib28Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Sponenberg says it better than I can, and the whole section - heck, the whole book - is worth reading.
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It's really good to get the book - well worth buying and I strongly recommend it for anyone interested in Basenjis or any other land race breed of any species. See www.amazon.com or the ALBC website.
That said, ALBC has their books online at Google Books and you can read pages 20-23 at http://books.google.com/books?id=GmsDwDuuP2cC&pg=PT100&lpg=PT100&dq=sponenberg+preserving+breeds&source=bl&ots=6RiX-84Svh&sig=LZhXlf8_auMwBfmuShgk9nDfVTY&hl=en&ei=EWtMTti5Ls25tgelib28Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Sponenberg says it better than I can, and the whole section - heck, the whole book - is worth reading.
Thanks, I can't preview those pages but I will definitely add it to my wish list.
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Can you help me understand your definitions of the above? I think that would be a useful context to further the discussion. What is a "significant impact" or what is "well represented"? This would help me understand the different perspectives on this.
I think that is going to differ depending on who you talk with - but to me, a significant impact is when dogs are recognized as being useful in the gene pool to enough people that they are likely to have a lasting influence.
Well represented, to me, means descendents are in multiple households, appear likely to breed on, and are not limited to one or two people or one or two small programs.
They tend to go together, for obvious reasons, but aren't exactly the same thing.
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Thanks, I can't preview those pages but I will definitely add it to my wish list.
Try using the right hand scroll bar - it should let you scroll all the way up. At least when I browsed it, I was able to read that section.
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Try using the right hand scroll bar - it should let you scroll all the way up. At least when I browsed it, I was able to read that section.
It's just letting me preview a different section of the book, pages earlier in the book than 50 are "omitted from this book preview." Just bad luck with Google Books. The section I looked is very interesting though. Definitely looks like a good book.
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@JoT:
[
This is a critical statement. The value of adding additional native dogs to access other EFb genes only comes from adding dogs within the EF biome from areas not already represented by current founders. To continue bringing in dogs from the same geographic area(s) within the EF biome does not add "new" genes or contribute to gene diversity.Jo, my main question goes to this general statement. Practically, do these "areas not already represented by current founders" still exist and if so, are they accessible and relatively "un-compromised" (for lack of a better word) by dogs that may represent other areas in the EF biomes or elsewhere.](http://www.suite101.com/content/central-africas-dog--congo-origin-of-the-basenji-a224967)
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I think that is going to differ depending on who you talk with - but to me, a significant impact is when dogs are recognized as being useful in the gene pool to enough people that they are likely to have a lasting influence.
Well represented, to me, means descendents are in multiple households, appear likely to breed on, and are not limited to one or two people or one or two small programs.
They tend to go together, for obvious reasons, but aren't exactly the same thing.
Thanks, I realize this all depends on perspective. It would be beneficial IMO if "significant impact to the breed" could be dimensioned in a more quantitative way. We seem to have ways to demonstrate "significant negative impacts" such as with the discussions of popular sires and their disproportionate contributions to the gene pool but "positive impacts" seems to be more nebulous to demonstrate.
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It's just letting me preview a different section of the book, pages earlier in the book than 50 are "omitted from this book preview." Just bad luck with Google Books. The section I looked is very interesting though. Definitely looks like a good book.
A brief summary of the relevant section - and please get a copy of the book if you can - what to include and what to exclude is the stickiest issue, and more difficult with land race breeds than any other. In general, one should look at phenotype and cultural setting. It can be misleading with individuals, but is indicative with populations.
History can be greatly of use. Phenotype is important. DNA can be useful (parenthetically, Boyko's DNA work showed that most African village dogs he sampled were either relatively pure or highly admixed, with villages having entirely or almost entirely one or the other.)
He has page after page of examples of applying this (it is also a frequent topic in his other writings.)
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Jo, my main question goes to this general statement. Practically, do these "areas not already represented by current founders" still exist and if so, are they accessible and relatively "un-compromised" (for lack of a better word) by dogs that may represent other areas in the EF biomes or elsewhere.
The South Sudan is newly accessible (although I don't know of any Basenji person who has gone yet) and is historically a major home of Basenjis. I have heard multiple people interested in going there - I do not know if a trip is planned yet but I would be surprised if it did not happen.
However, in bringing in new dogs, you do NOT want to avoid areas already represented by current founders. Unless you've already gotten 100-200 founders well represented in the gene pool, the area is likely to include very significant untapped genetic diversity. Additional genetic diversity is likely even if we had that many founders. We still have, last I checked, less than 50. And that genetic diversity is highly correlated with healthy long-term survival of a breed.
The principle used to preserve rare and land race breeds is basically "include as much genetic material that is of that breed as you can".
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Thanks, I realize this all depends on perspective. It would be beneficial IMO if "significant impact to the breed" could be dimensioned in a more quantitative way. We seem to have ways to demonstrate "significant negative impacts" such as with the discussions of popular sires and their disproportionate contributions to the gene pool but "positive impacts" seems to be more nebulous to demonstrate.
Significant impact isn't a quantitative measure. It's a qualititative one. It varies depending on your values, your breeding program, and what you are selecting for. Major questions are usually, which population, and what qualities do you consider significant.
Giving horse examples (because they are likelier to keep me out of trouble) - Nazeer has a significant impact on the Arabian class A halter population, as does El Shaklan, Bey El Bey, and Padron.
They have no significant influence on the CMK population (very popular as endurance, family, riding, and dressage horses.) You'll occasionally see a distant descendent of Nazeer via Ralvon Elijah, who is 90-odd percent Crabbet otherwise, but that's about it. On the other hand, Aurab, who you don't see a lot of in pedigrees in the Class A halter ring, is a major influence on Arabian dressage horses and a significant force in CMK pedigrees.
For Basenjis (treading carefully here), the new imports are being widely used, in significant percentages of pedigree (not once and out) in show dogs in my area and in other areas that I know. This includes dogs that are top Honor Roll producers (see previously mentioned #3 Brood Bitch of all time, dam of at least one BIS winner and a boatload of champions, who is about 40% Avongara), National Specialty Award of Merit winners, all-breed Best in show winners, and top performance competitors. The Honor Roll producers include at least a couple of Avongaras, dogs that I frequently see in pedigrees.
So I'm not sure I "get" the idea that the earlier imports have not been well-used. In general, I see better, not worse, overall conformation with full and part Afs - I may be seeing results of more successful selection, but the source dogs are the same. In particular, Afs and Af blends I see tend to have better substance. They avoid extremely upright and forward shoulders too common in domestics. All I have seen have better musculature than average.
The usage I am seeing is not "one and out" breeding as much as careful and ongoing blending over multiple generations.
The Avongaras are significant to these programs, and these breeders feel they are getting better dogs through them. They are winning enough, and having enough other people to use their dogs, that their impact on the overall breed is substantial.
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The usage I am seeing is not "one and out" breeding as much as careful and ongoing blending over multiple generations.
The Avongaras are significant to these programs, and these breeders feel they are getting better dogs through them. They are winning enough, and having enough other people to use their dogs, that their impact on the overall breed is substantial.
You're talking about native stock that people wanted to use and my perception is that you won't get much argument there. If people are using them regularly then they have significant value and could have impact to the breed as a whole. Going back to the original question at the beginning of the thread (and granted it started as a continuation of another thread), I believe the context of "one and out" comments were directed more to potential introduction of native stock of "lower quality" which do not have as much general appeal to breeders. If they have so many faults that you would have to do a "one and out" to compensate to get their "new genes" then what's the point? I think it all gets back to what individual breeders consider a "basenji" to be, it appears there is a wide range of perspective particularly when talking about native stock.
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You're talking about native stock that people wanted to use and my perception is that you won't get much argument there. If people are using them regularly then they have significant value and could have impact to the breed as a whole. Going back to the original question at the beginning of the thread (and granted it started as a continuation of another thread), I believe the context of "one and out" comments were directed more to potential introduction of native stock of "lower quality" which do not have as much general appeal to breeders. If they have so many faults that you would have to do a "one and out" to compensate to get their "new genes" then what's the point? I think it all gets back to what individual breeders consider a "basenji" to be, it appears there is a wide range of perspective particularly when talking about native stock.
The problem with the original question, to me, is that the dogs to date used for "one and out", to get brindle, are the exact same native stock that other people wanted to use, and have used very successfully. With the exception of first generation pups from a fourth import and first generation from Tiger in the 60's, all brindle prior to the 2006 stud book openings was from Gangura, Diagba, and Mbliki.
All three have been successfully incorporated into ongoing breeding programs. One and out is a choice, not a condemnation of the dog's potential.
What I've seen in watching breeding programs my whole life, of a variety of domestic species, is that animals value as breeding stock varies according to who is using them and what they're using them for.
My upbringing was replete with stories of horses that were seen as no value by some, but turned out to be immensely valuable in breeding programs when they caught the eye of the right breeder. See Bazy Tankersley's discussions of *Sulejman, many of Lady Wentworth's discussions of many varied horses, the history of the Davenports, etc, etc. - also see Spencer Borden's writings on the Arabian in the US, etc.
Some rather obscure or even ordinary horses turned out to be spectacularly valuable in the breeding shed - and some horses with specific faults (Bazy's writings on using *Ranix comes to mind) were brilliant sires when used correctly. *Count Dorsaz was the better horse, and more important in her program - but she got things from *Ranix that were invaluable - e.g. the lovely Canadian Beau - and she has repeatedly emphasized how important *Ranix was to her program.
In Avongaras, some of the more ordinary individuals have been exceptional producers. I don't think anyone would have pegged Gangura as the star of his importation, but he turned out to be quite a good sire - look at his full Af son, Avongara Zindiko of Brushy Run - there is no question what breed Zee is, and no question that he is an outstanding individual of that breed.
Excluding Gangura, because he "wasn't pretty enough", would have been a horrible mistake, and would have cost us many very, very good dogs.
The criteria is not "an individual that I would use." There are tons of champions, including Best in Show winners, that I would not use if you gave them to me. I have a goal and I am interested in dogs that help me achieve that goal.
The criteria IMHO is "is this individual of this breed, and of sufficient interest to be used by someone." If they've put them forward, it appears that the answer is yes to the latter question.
Gorgeous individuals may or may not be good producers. Ordinary individuals can be very, very good producers, particularly when used well.
My excluding a dog because it isn't my cup of tea, although I believe it to be a Basenji, to me is equivalent to my saying, if I don't want to use it, you can't either.
Imagine if I tried that with domestics!
I do not think I am so smart as to be able to know every way every dog can be usefully incorporated into a breeding program, and I honestly don't think anyone else is capable of that either.
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The original post which was by me was not abut "in and then out for a color", it was about bringing in dogs that don't give you the feeling, "this is a basenji" for the sake of diversity and then breeding to them once and then out because they really do nothing for you.
I think the main criteria should be is it a basenji. That is the real issue though, what is a "real basenji". I think that Dr Jo gave some really good information about the region where basenjis live. Something that seems to be overlooked quite often.
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The original post which was by me was not abut "in and then out for a color", it was about bringing in dogs that don't give you the feeling, "this is a basenji" for the sake of diversity and then breeding to them once and then out because they really do nothing for you.
I think the main criteria should be is it a basenji. That is the real issue though, what is a "real basenji". I think that Dr Jo gave some really good information about the region where basenjis live. Something that seems to be overlooked quite often.
Well put lvoss. I agree.
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As Lisa Voss put it, what is a "real basenji"?, circling back to her original post. That question has yet to be answered satisfactorily.
There certainly are myriad opinions as to what is a "real basenji", and what is a "basenji -type" dog, and from what regions in Africa dogs should be imported for incorporation into the breed we call the Basenji.
Thanks Lisa CA for the excellent resources about the necessity of maintaining a robust vigorous breeding population. The opportunity to hear Dr. Sponenberg talk at the 2012 BCOA Nationals in Gettysburg PA is just one more exciting reason to attend!
Katy Scott
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This is a fascinating discussion! (Love the horse references, although I would contest the idea that anything of Sheila Varian's is only good for "pretty"! She bred and trained athletes…...she thought Bay el Bey could easily have been an open reining horse, had she gone that way with him, and his get through some of his sons have done well in dressage, among other things)
The trouble with asking "what is a Basenji" (or any other breed) is that we tend to judge by what we see. Bench showing requires that. The breeders who are into lure coursing, and breeding for that ability, or the few who actually hunt with their dogs, might have a different idea of the "ideal" Basenji, based on performance. If the animals are not tested for ability in some way, it is too easy to lose those qualities that defined the breed in the first place......and made him useful.
The Border Collie people who breed herding dogs don't give a rat's patootie what the dog looks like, as long as he can herd......hence their reluctance to allow the breed to be CKC registered, because they simply do not want them bred for "pretty" at the expense of their working ability.
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The trouble with asking "what is a Basenji" (or any other breed) is that we tend to judge by what we see. Bench showing requires that. The breeders who are into lure coursing, and breeding for that ability, or the few who actually hunt with their dogs, might have a different idea of the "ideal" Basenji, based on performance. If the animals are not tested for ability in some way, it is too easy to lose those qualities that defined the breed in the first place…...and made him useful.
People that course do not have a different idea about conformation and having a coursing dog. All of mine are Dual Champions (Conformation and Coursing). As they say, Form follows Function. It they are properly constructed they can run and in fact if they are not properly constructed your will have issues running them long term. So I disagree that people "breed" for coursing dogs are different then people that breed for conformation. Maybe for "instinct" in course/hunting, but should not be anything different in conformation. The qualities that are in the standard for conformation support the performance aspect of the breed.
