@abonnard Pee pads got me through in the end, she would pee every 20 mins for the first months, then 40 mins, then she suddenly went to being able to hold it for many hours. One of the best purchases I got before she arrived was a small carpet washer, saved my sanity. The cleanup is so key otherwise they go back to the same spot.
Marley
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I second these thoughts of perhaps a pinch of over zealousness. Don't get me wrong, man I WISH we had ppl who were up front enough to talk about the importance of texting/breeding with our first Basenji. It would have prevented a lot of heartache. However, despite good intentions I think the questions straight from the "intro" forum could rub off abrasively. Humans, being the emotional creatures that we are - tend to interpret that as there is something wrong with the beloved companion rather then accepting it's advice from concerned Basenji owners trying to look out for the welfare of the dog. I overwhelmingly agree that there should be a sticky made for the topic - I'm sure the members can help write it - along with a flag that says "Read BEFORE you Join!" so that ppl are not affronted however innocent the questions are. It's a dicey subject matter, but I absolutely think it needs to be addressed. I mean, what good dog owner wouldn't want the absolute best for their companion?
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So how many posts do you wait, 5, 10, 20? I don't think that it is a number of posts issue. Everytime this comes up I go and read the introduction threads. The majority of the posts are "Welcome, post pictures please." "How cute" "Hey, great to see another _________ here". Then there is the sprinkling of "Who'd you get your dog from?" and "Were the parents tested for Fanconi?" They are not the majority of the posts, they are frequently several posts down the thread.
I know I have said this before but asking where your dog came from is more like being asked "Are you Joe's kid?" at a family reunion than it is like being asked "Tell me your bank account."
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I mentioned this before, but you can not expect every person that comes here will feel the warm and fuzzies we did. You all have valid points but I don't think anyone is doing anything wrong. A sticky would be fine, but would they read it? If they didn't take the time to research the dog breeder why would they take the time to research a forum?
Besides the only people that get upset are the ones who did not get their dog from a reputable breeder. Like myself, I got the same questions. I came here to learn and talk about my love of this breed. Some people are just overly sensative.
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I wouldn't say that anyone had done something "wrong", it's just ….
because it has been noted that there are those who do get defensive and sometimes leave the forum, perhaps it would be of greater benefit to slowly introduce the topics so as not to offend.
It seems that there is lesser benefit to the breed as well as to the individual dogs when those people stomp off in a huff, NOT really hearing the information, not being moved to do the testing, not being dissuaded from breeding inappropriately.Not that the statements are in and of themselves offense, but we all know that tone cannot be conveyed well in written word, and there have been several who have misinterpreted the good intent.
I TOTALLY agree that the info SHOULD...MUST... be gotten out there. Maybe for some it's just too much too soon.
The family reunion analogy works for us, because we "get" it. But sometimes the "Who's the breeder? Were tests done?" approach may feel more like a "Are you Joe's kid? I'm not sure he should have had children" to some.
Maybe those people get defensive because somewhere in side they DO feel "guilty" for having purchased their dog from a less-than-desirable source, or maybe it's because they feel their beloved pup has been insulted, or maybe they didn't know and now feel "stupid". Either way, it seems more important -- IMO-- to risk waiting a week or two on info and getting those folks to stick around than to risk losing them completely and NEVER getting them to come around.
And really the info IS there and they may well find it sooner than later as they bop around the forum.
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I am sure that we have many, many "lurkers" on this forum that have never posted, but are considering or have purchased and/or rescued a Basenji… and while we might turn off some people for whatever reason... I have to believe that we are reaching others... and we have had people on this forum that have "taken" immediate offense to questions about "where did you get you B" or "do you know or have they been DNA tested for Fanconi?"... and have maybe left the forum or not... For the majority... even the ones that may have left in a huff.... I would venture to guess that now lurk... and maybe have done some research and will at least get some testing done. And maybe for the few that are looking, they will research a little more before buying....
And again I point out... many times the questions are to make a connection... just like I did with the person that bred to one of the FoPaw dogs...
I don't think any of us have said "give that puppy back"... we may have said that they didn't get their pup from a responsible breeder and now you just need to love your pup and do some testing... we have only said that the owners need to test for their own peace of mind... -
"Where'd you get your basenji?" is in and of itself a neutral question with no positive or negative connotation as written. If someone is taking offense to that question then they are bringing their own bias to the conversation. I would rather ask it sooner than later because really, how are we going to make connections with people if we are afraid someone might storm off in huff any time we try to converse with them about the main topic of this forum? How many times can you read or type, "Welcome", "Thanks", "Glad to see you here", "Great to be here"? If you are joining a forum about Basenjis it seems a no brainer that people are going to ask you about your basenji.
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I agree "where did you get your basenji" isn't something to set someone off.
But maybe if they don't tell us right away, we should drop it for a bit..then revisit?
Just a thought. -
"Where'd you get your basenji?" is in and of itself a neutral question with no positive or negative connotation as written. If someone is taking offense to that question then they are bringing their own bias to the conversation. I would rather ask it sooner than later because really, how are we going to make connections with people if we are afraid someone might storm off in huff any time we try to converse with them about the main topic of this forum? How many times can you read or type, "Welcome", "Thanks", "Glad to see you here", "Great to be here"? If you are joining a forum about Basenjis it seems a no brainer that people are going to ask you about your basenji.
Maybe a "Where'd you get your pup? The Basenji world is small and s/he may have relatives here!"….. ? Maybe I should be more offended that no one was interested in my and MY B, LOL.
I don't know what the answer is. Every post I read, I find myself thinking, "Oh! Good point." :rolleyes:
I don't remember being asked at all, so I can't really understand why it'd be offensive -- but then, maybe I volunteered the info in my intro so the question was never asked?
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Well, here's my 2Cents worth, I was asked when I first joined. I didn't like it either because I found out that buying from a pet store was not the thing to do. Someone told me that it was bad, bad to get one this way, well, I didn't know, geez, give me a break will ya! Fact being if I hadn't walked into that petshop I wouldn't have the wonderful Basenji that I love dearly. I didn't know the breed, I have one of 2 in my small town, looking to make it 3 this year, maybe. This time from a breeder who I know and trust. I suggest that we don't ask at all until the new poster feels comfortable, and please don't lecture them on buying from a puppy mill. Just tell them about them so they don't buy from them again, and leave it alone. I always felt that the ones asking were the breeders on the forum and they wanted to know way to much info. Sorry girls but that is how I felt, now I know different but when you are new you dissect everything asked and told to you. You know in this day and time, it is only smart to watch what you tell those you don't know. Well, that's it folks!!!!!
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I don't know what the answer is. Every post I read, I find myself thinking, "Oh! Good point." :rolleyes:
Yeah, me too….
That was a good point, lvoss, about the person bringing their own bias to the "Big Q"
I think I volunteered the info when I joined.....this was of course after reading the forum for a month, maybe two, before introducing myself (HIGHLY advisable!). I knew it was something you all would want to know. -
Well, here's my 2Cents worth, I was asked when I first joined. I didn't like it either because I found out that buying from a pet store was not the thing to do. Someone told me that it was bad, bad to get one this way, well, I didn't know, geez, give me a break will ya! Fact being if I hadn't walked into that petshop I wouldn't have the wonderful Basenji that I love dearly. I didn't know the breed, I have one of 2 in my small town, looking to make it 3 this year, maybe. This time from a breeder who I know and trust. I suggest that we don't ask at all until the new poster feels comfortable, and please don't lecture them on buying from a puppy mill. Just tell them about them so they don't buy from them again, and leave it alone. I always felt that the ones asking were the breeders on the forum and they wanted to know way to much info. Sorry girls but that is how I felt, now I know different but when you are new you dissect everything asked and told to you. You know in this day and time, it is only smart to watch what you tell those you don't know. Well, that's it folks!!!!!
How would you know that the poster is "comfortable"?…. and I don't think anyone has lectured about puppy mills or buying from a pet store, other than to say that they didn't come from a responsible breeder.... and to ask, coming from responsible breeders, is because we want to be able to point people to the right direction.. and sometimes that means being "direct".... and if we really wanted "too" much information... you should see what we ask when we are considering a breeding... it is nothing like what we might ask here.... Many on this list have asked about "did I buy from a responsible breeder" and when responded to... especially if they did not.. they got even more insulted... regardless, you have a pup/adult... these are the facts... deal with it... and again there has been no one here that has made comments about returning a pup... only what people need to do to at least know the health concerns.... and regardless where you got you B.... and if you did get yours from a pet store or BYB.. this is a learning situation that needs to be passed to others looking for a pup...
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Maybe a "Where'd you get your pup? The Basenji world is small and s/he may have relatives here!"….. ? Maybe I should be more offended that no one was interested in my and MY B, LOL.
If you look back at your own introduction thread the breeder of your dog was "outed" by Sharron before anyone could ask. http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=89
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I mentioned this before, but you can not expect every person that comes here will feel the warm and fuzzies we did. You all have valid points but I don't think anyone is doing anything wrong. A sticky would be fine, but would they read it? If they didn't take the time to research the dog breeder why would they take the time to research a forum?
Besides the only people that get upset are the ones who did not get their dog from a reputable breeder. Like myself, I got the same questions. I came here to learn and talk about my love of this breed. Some people are just overly sensative.
well it seems like I have sparked a flame in the forum, not my intention. though I do disagree with the fact that I did not research this forum for knowledge about the breed. apparently I got my baby B from a BYB, that is my bad but she is in a good home and on to a good future. To set the record straight I got Marley , My first dog by the way , because she fit my family
I did spot the very same trend that some members have pointed out, I was very hesitent to even post at all because I knew it would come up, but I wanted to share what a wonderful beauty she was. I'm not overly sensitive but honestly if your B is not a rescue or from a registered breeder, your just looking in on the outside here. I did not realize there was such a thing as a BYB, when I got her.
So maybe I brought some issues to light that have been overlooked.
I thank all of the members that have been supportive, not of me but of the issue.
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I am sorry if you feel like rescue or breeder owners keep others looking in on the outside.
I don't think that is the intention.
We want folks to be informed re b's health.
Good breeders have that info on hand.
Other of us, well, we have to do the testing that helps us know our dogs will be with us a long time.
That is what I think should be important when someone new comes in.
Giving them the tools to check on their dogs health. -
There are many people who do not know what a BYB is, especially when getting their first dog. The important thing is to learn from the experience.
What people here have been trying to get across is that one of the things a responsible breeder does is provide buyers with information about the health issues in the breed and in their lines specifically. That is what Diane was doing, giving you information about the breed and trying to find out if your dog is from the girl she lost track of so she can give you some specific information about that dog's family history because it may have a big impact on you in the future.
As for not having papers, once Marley is spayed you can apply for an ILP number so she can participate in events like lure coursing, rally obedience, or agility if you choose. Basenjis are often happiest when they have a "job" and these events can be wonderful outlets for their energy.
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well it seems like I have sparked a flame in the forum, not my intention. though I do disagree with the fact that I did not research this forum for knowledge about the breed. apparently I got my baby B from a BYB, that is my bad but she is in a good home and on to a good future. To set the record straight I got Marley , My first dog by the way , because she fit my family
I did spot the very same trend that some members have pointed out, I was very hesitent to even post at all because I knew it would come up, but I wanted to share what a wonderful beauty she was. I'm not overly sensitive but honestly if your B is not a rescue or from a registered breeder, your just looking in on the outside here. I did not realize there was such a thing as a BYB, when I got her.
So maybe I brought some issues to light that have been overlooked.
I thank all of the members that have been supportive, not of me but of the issue.
That is exactly the point, people still don't know how to find a responsible breeder that health tests their dogs, tells people about the health concerns in our breed and what they should watch for. Another thing about PM puppies or BYB puppies is a likely temperament problem due to missing early socialzation training. I don't see that as "on the outside" looking in… but a way to learn and maybe teaching one other person about how to find a responsible breeder when looking for a pup, regardless of the breed. Or when you go looking for a "2nd" Basenji, you would have the information on how to find a responsible breeder.
Our responses and questions are not the discount the person or the Basenjis, but to point out that there are some things that you need to consider doing that were not done by the breeder. We all know that it is not like you are going to give the dog back, nor would anyone expect that.
If you go back through many of the threads, you will see the questions about Basenjis that people have purchased, that had they gone to a responsible breeder would have been told the facts. Here are just two of them that you find day in and day out on the web....
1. While they typically don't bark, they are NOT mute...
I think this is one of the ones that is heard most often and it really surprises people to find out they might not bark but in many cases can be worse then a barker2. They are hypoallergentic... again, an incorrect statement. While they are usually good with some people with allergies, the fact that they do shed and do have dander takes them out of the class of dogs that are hypoallergentic
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well it seems like I have sparked a flame in the forum, not my intention. though I do disagree with the fact that I did not research this forum for knowledge about the breed. apparently I got my baby B from a BYB, that is my bad but she is in a good home and on to a good future. To set the record straight I got Marley , My first dog by the way , because she fit my family
I did spot the very same trend that some members have pointed out, I was very hesitent to even post at all because I knew it would come up, but I wanted to share what a wonderful beauty she was. I'm not overly sensitive but honestly if your B is not a rescue or from a registered breeder, your just looking in on the outside here. I did not realize there was such a thing as a BYB, when I got her.
So maybe I brought some issues to light that have been overlooked.
I thank all of the members that have been supportive, not of me but of the issue.
Will_s, your girl is a beauty! I have wanted a B/W since I saw one on this forum.
My B is not from a rescue or a registered breeder and I had no idea what a back yard breeder was. I learned that from coming here. The questions that you were asked and the information you were given was not to "out" you or offend you, but to prepare you. When you go to the Dr. do you not go back to him again if he asked if you have been exercising regularly and explains the benefits of it to you? It is the same thing here. You came for information and you got it. Don't leave this forum because someone hurt your feelings. Learn from the experience and pass it on to others.
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Well lets look at it constructively, the way the health hazards were presented to me, I found rude, most of them I already knew about anyway, its common wikipedia info, much less here or front page on any other Basenji site.
It was not the information I found unsettling, it was the way it was presented and forced upon, have some tact about it, people that are new members don't want a lecture delivered from high upon the moutain. And the argument that the message overrides how it is delivered is just the easy way out.
We all care about our animals, maybe consider the new owners as much when they join the forum as well, after all the information is free here and everywhere, it takes effort to be a member of a online community, other wise everybody wolud just lurk.
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Well lets look at it constructively, the way the health hazards were presented to me, I found rude, most of them I already knew about anyway, its common wikipedia info, much less here or front page on any other Basenji site.
It was not the information I found unsettling, it was the way it was presented and forced upon, have some tact about it, people that are new members don't want a lecture delivered from high upon the moutain. And the argument that the message overrides how it is delivered is just the easy way out.
We all care about our animals, maybe consider the new owners as much when they join the forum as well, after all the information is free here and everywhere, it takes effort to be a member of a online community, other wise everybody wolud just lurk.
Will_s, you are correct. It is just hard sometimes to get your message across in a written email. I hope you will stay. I look forward to seeing your adorable little girl grow up! Besides, I 'm jealous. I want a B/W but we are maxed out right now. Some day….
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The information on Wikipedia is not quite accurate and if people are using it as a "reliable" source of information for the breed then they probably do need some more information. Basenjis are not "noiseless" or silent as the author of the Temperament section describes. The health section leaves out Hypothyroidism all together which is a problem in the breed and should be tested. There is no information about how eyes need to be examined by a Board Certified Vet Opthamologist for PRA. Wikipedia is open content, and one of us can go in and edit these points, there is not gauruntee that someone won't go and change to something else later.
As for how the information was presented, nothing posted in this thread about health which amounts to a single post by me to check if the parents were tested and if not get your puppy tested was said in a "high on the mountain" tone. It was strictly informational. As for the private email conversation you posted, even that did not have a "high on the mountain" tone, it was concerned and upset because a dog that was supposed to be spayed/neutered was not and this breeder now knows that there are health issues coming down from this line that she did not want propagated.
