@naz-roseberry said in 7 year old Basenji who needs a family:
@DebraDownSouth I appreciate your post and thoughts. I didn't state in theearly post what all I have tried. We actually crated, put up, and even muzzled Cutler for over a year. It has only made it worse. I can only assume it is a desire of his to bite and when he is removed from people it only makes the desire worse. The way you said it was "my failure " was harsh considering you have NO IDEA the extreme measures and inconveniences that my family has been through trying to help Cutler. The reason I have went to this extreme is because we have tried everything.....and locking Cutler away from everyone or every time we have company is unfair to us & him. We love this dog but a lawsuit is something I cannot afford and locking a dog away is also something I do not believe in.
The "my fault" is one of emotional personal failure. It wasn't meant as it sounded. Some dogs are simply unstable and there is nothing you can do safely to change it. People want to imagine they can fix anything.. and honestly, you can't. So if what you have done, which is what any home would have to do to keep him safe and others safe from him, made him miserable-- then what do you hope to accomplish by giving him to someone else? It gets back to the same bottom line... if he cannot be made safe without making him miserable, then the kinder act is to let him go in your arms. If you have so much company that "locking him away" is that constant, then I don't see other options.
@ar2003 said in 7 year old Basenji who needs a family:
@DebraDownSouth I appreciate your response to our post. I have to admit though was taken back by a few of your comments.
- ...and if you lie to them (in regards to BRAT).
I also want to add that the situation that we have found ourselves in(meaning Cutler biting children) is new to us. He has not always been this aggressive just seems to have gotten worse for some reason since we have moved.
- ......this dog losing his home because you cannot train your your children is very sad......this one I take great offense too. First of all, my kids are very well trained around Cutler. ....This is what scares me --my family has tried so hard to prevent things from happening but it all happens so quickly.
Lastly, we feel that we have failed and take full responsibility. My husband and I have always had dogs in our life ever since we were little. We have never experienced anything like this before. I wish I could tell you where we have failed! We agree that it is the owners responsibility 100%.
The harshness of my response is from decades of dealing with rescues. I don't know you, you don't know me. But I am all too aware of people desperately wanting their dogs in another home, to get another chance, and lying to achieve it. I am glad you wouldn't... but it was just meant as a general precaution to you and to anyone considering the dog.
Your comment about the newness of this issue has me wondering if the children have hurt him when you weren't home, or if he has thyroid issues or something else going on. If he has not had a full thyroid panel run, please do before you make any decisions. Though generally thyroid would change home behaviors, not just to kids.
Did your trainer work with him on desensitization exercise with kids? Things like having them walk by at a safe distance (where he feels safe, not them) fence, no eye contact, just throw a nice little treat. Over, and over, and over until you see him start looking positive about a child approaching. Then let them get a bit closer to the fence... same boring routine, over and over several times a day for a couple of weeks. Finally, approach closer, say his name, toss treats. Positive response?
Next, in a crate, in the room with the kids, same zero eye contact, toss a treat. over and over, as much variety of kids as you can possibly get. Variety of clothing. Keep it all very short.. from a couple of mins in house and build up to 10 mins. Make sure treats healthy and tiny (like boiled chicken, cut into tiny pieces then baked). IF you can retrain his reactiveness to children, reduce his anxiety and distress, you might be able to make this work with him being put up and not obsessed and upset about them being there. High quality toys, gigantic chew bones he can chew but not digest, frozen kongs... things he might enjoy only when kids there so even though separated, he's okay about it.
Again, the failure part I meant emotionally. If he is unstable, you can't fix it. If he has learned to dislike kids because some have secretly hurt or teased him, you might greatly diminish the response. But the reality is, trusting him with children will always be a "no." Fortunately, your kids are reaching young adult stage, so if you can bring him to a level that being kept from people isn't traumatizing him, that's workable. And if you can get him to a better level, even if you still want him placed, then you have done your job of helping him be safer in case the adopters mess up. Because "adults only homes" still have neighbors and visitors. Therein lies the problem with dogs aggressive to children.
@DebraDownSouth said in 7 year old Basenji who needs a family:
Are they Brat dogs or mixed they allow on their page? They explicitly state not responsible for mixes put on the page or private adoptions:
https://www.basenjirescue.org/PostDog.asp
I went through the few available... and while they ask if bites in anger, I have never seen one that said yes. Absolutely some nip in play. I'd be pretty surprised to see a regular Brat one that had a bite issue.
I have seen listings before that said "yes" to that question, usually with an explanation in the blurb on the dog. There is a current one that says "no, unless guarding his food bowl". Well, a bite is a bite, and if someone makes a mistake and gets bitten, the dog is already flagged as one that will defend his possessions.
Biting is certainly more of an issue than it used to be. Once upon a time if a kid got nailed.....and I am talking broken skin, but one or two bites, not mutilation.....adults would blame the kid, not the dog, as the bite was usually deserved! Kids tease dogs. Kids hurt dogs, intentionally or otherwise. Supervision of children with dogs is so important and often neglected because "my child wouldn't do that". I would be suspicious with a sudden change in a dog's behaviour. If there is no physical explanation, than I would guess someone has done something to make the dog reactive.
My brother in law recalls a Beagle their family had when he was young. If kids teased the dog, it wouldn't go after the person teasing, but would bite the least "alpha" in the group of kids. Transferred aggression. There is likely more to Cutler's story than is apparent, and it would be a shame for him to suffer the consequences if there is someone out there who has an ideal home for him.
BRAT always has far more dogs in various states of rehab than there are ready for adoption, and are up on the adoption site. Every bite case is different and dogs are dealt with case by case. Some dogs are rehabilitatable, others are not. Never say never.
-Joanne
@eeeefarm
Not sure how I missed it, I thought I looked at them all
Bites (in anger): No - but will bite if guarding his food bowl!<<
I am pretty shocked. Not that I think food aggression is a biggie... fairly easy fix. But wow. Thanks Shirley.
@giza1 said in 7 year old Basenji who needs a family:
BRAT always has far more dogs in various states of rehab than there are ready for adoption, and are up on the adoption site. Every bite case is different and dogs are dealt with case by case. Some dogs are rehabilitatable, others are not. Never say never.
-Joanne
I am shocked, really. I have seen rescues go under from taking just one bite dog, even though the bite was understandable and the dog probable very safe to place. I think a lot of dogs can be rehabilitated.. but risk a rescue over it? Wow. I really had no idea they would take a dog with a bite report, regardless of why. Things have changed with them for sure.
Okay... so I took the time to read all the profiles... and I am both shocked and very disappointed. Not only does this dog have repeated notes about food aggression, but they have another dog listed who had "nipped" a child.
The web site looks like they are NOT testing for Fanconi, but someone just clarified they absolutely are, just a lot pending. Hopefully they'll clarify that on the site. Sorry for anyone who read the unedited comment. I should have verified first that the site not correct.
But all adopters, please... do not ever take a rescue without that Fanconi test. It can be managed, but it is intense. You should have the right to know before you ever adopt a dog.
Yes, BRAT DNAs all their Basenjis.
https://www.basenjirescue.org/donations/FR_DonationForm.asp?FRID=27
-Joanne
Joanne, I had read that, but the list of rescues doesn't indicate it, so I was worried. I should have checked before posting. Thank you for correcting it and I amended my post.
There was a Border Collie living not far from me that was getting quite aggressive (including biting) towards teenage visitors and the family had tried everything to sort out the behaviour, including muzzles. They couldn't cope, and contacted a rescue. The dog is now living on a farm (much more appropriate setting) with an adult couple and from all reports doing exceptionally well. So apparently other breed rescues also accept dogs with bite histories, and there are happy endings out there. Some dogs change a great deal (for good or bad) when relocated. I've seen it myself and heard it anecdotally too often to dismiss it as unlikely.
I know BRAT spends time assessing dogs in foster care, and have often read reports that indicate a dog that had issues at its original home seems to have reformed when relocated. As long as there is full disclosure I think it is up to the adopter to decide whether they can deal with potential problems. Of the Basenjis I have owned I would have trusted three of them not to bite kids if provoked, and would have bet the other two definitely would have defended their dignity and likely nailed the offending child. Therefore I was vigilant whenever I had company who weren't dog savvy.
@eeeefarm Shirley I know many dogs who have been rehomed with bite issues. I just draw the line at kids. Even as a private adoption. I'm not risking my home on a dog, no matter how much I know the issue was the owners. It is not uncommon here for dogs with issues to be relocated to farms/private homes with land where risk is lower. But when it comes to children, I guess I am hard hearted. There isn't a dog out there I would consider worth saving who was a danger to kids. The shelters are packed with truly wonderful animals who are safe, so I don't deal with child aggression. If a child hurt a dog and got bit, if a dog were sick... yeah. But a child-aggressive dog, no. Of course, remember that most my life has been Rottweilers and Chows. There's no margin for error there. At least with a basenji you don't risk a severely mauled or dead dog.
As for what some rescues do.. yeah, they do. And then they get sued and their ability to help any other dog is gone. I just don't consider that responsible to anyone.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2015/04/29/shelter-faces-suit-for-adopting-out-wild-dog.htm
http://www.10news.com/news/san-diego-man-suing-over-severe-bite-by-rescue-dog-110215
http://www.cleveland.com/naymik/index.ssf/2014/03/man_bites_animal_shelter_legal.html
http://illinoistimes.com/article-15916-dog-bites-man,-who-sues.html
http://www.newsplex.com/home/headlines/Fluvanna-SPCA-Sued-After-Child-Bitten-353256531.html
http://patch.com/connecticut/stamford/stamford-settles-dog-bite-lawsuit-0
I'll stop now. I stand by feeling a responsible rescue does not adopt out dogs with bite history. Rescues taking dogs from shelters and then doing bad placements have been at least a part of the reason that a lot of shelters started requiring liability insurance and 501 status of rescue groups. It has resulted in state and local laws requiring liability insurance from rescues that were barely able to stay afloat without the additional costs. I know several who simply stopped working in rescue here in GA.
Perhaps I am jaded, or just tired, after so many decades in rescue, but I don't consider adopting a human aggressive dog to be responsible. I don't believe a dog who is highly food or animal aggressive should be place in anything but a thoroughly vetted home that has the experience and ability to manage the dog safely, because bites happen over food and inter-dog aggression, not just human aggression. With that, I'll bow out. I do wish the OP the best of luck with the dog.
@DebraDownSouth said in 7 year old Basenji who needs a family:
Of course, remember that most my life has been Rottweilers and Chows. There's no margin for error there.
I would totally agree with you. Large dogs capable of inflicting severe injury are a different matter than small dogs. Of course ideally no dog would bite, but often the dog feels it has little choice in the matter, especially if it has no escape route. Debra, I know you have extensive horse experience. I have seen lots of cases where someone was injured by a horse, not because the animal was nasty, but because in its mind it was just "saving its own life". Generally speaking, horse people recognize this and I have heard of very few instances where a horse has been put down or sold off to slaughter after someone got hurt, but dogs don't get the same benefit of the doubt. People often are the authors of their own misfortune. It's too bad it's the animal that suffers the consequences.
@eeeefarm said in 7 year old Basenji who needs a family:
but dogs don't get the same benefit of the doubt. People often are the authors of their own misfortune. It's too bad it's the animal that suffers the consequences.<<
The answer there is obvious... we hold dogs accountable for having human reasoning, but we don't horses. Of course dogs have reasoning, but it's not ours and people don't get it. It's like people saying their dog KNOWS it's wrong to poop in the house. Well.. no. They know you get mad if they do, they know if you train them they are supposed to go out. But wrong? No.
Sadly, unlike horses, dogs live with us up close and personal. So if one person can handle the horse, no one else has to be around it generally. With the dog, it is trapped in social structure. You can bet your bottom dollar my grandparent's farm dogs would chew you up if you came on the property at night other than to the front porch or drive... but folks expected that and they didn't sue you if they got bit. We are too litigation happy. I am sad that that precise factor makes me so anti-biter placing, because most of the time, I can and do get if a dog is simply unstable or there is good reasoning (at least for the dog) to bite.
Years ago Leora and I were at a dog show and she ... I KNOW she knew better... just suddenly pet this sleeping Great Dane as I was talking to someone next to them. The dog could have inhaled her.. she was maybe 40 pounds and it was huge. It left pink marks on her little white hand as it startled. The owners turned whiter than Leora (which is saying a lot as her friend says she rivals paper). Yes, I could have reported the dog to AKC, but I had zero doubt this was a first, and that the owners would never ever allow such a thing. I calmed them, chastised Leora for risking the dog's life over her behavior, and went on my way.
Years ago, I agreed to evaluate a severely abused 6 or 7 yr old Lhasa the rescue said was named Hannah when they asked me to evaluate her for them. They coordinator called me after about 4 days and asked if I was ever going to deal with them again.. and then admitted this dog had bitten several people, that they actually called her Hannibell Lecture, but they couldn't bear to put her down and if I felt it had to be done, they were behind me. They just wanted one last chance.
I put her on prozac because as it got dark out, she began to get bug-eyed and scary. When you know she was locked in a basement with only a partial window for light for at least 5 yrs... so pitch dark all night.. it made sense. After a few months, she became less fearful and frantic, but she'd still bite. I actually was planning to put her down, but a friend was here and we went to give her a bath and both of us sat bawling because she was so incredibly sweet when she wasn't crazy. Another friend, on a farm, no kids-- didn't like them so no one took small kids to her house lol -- said bring her to me. She lived the next 6 yrs in the huge cat/laundr rooms, cuddling with the cats and having a happy life. If Sally said "walkie walkie" and Hannah growled, she left her. When she didn't growl, she took her for potty breaks and walks. The trade off was Sally's husband refused to do the laundry or cat rooms as long as Hannah was alive. My vet was angry with me for not putting her down, until she got an eye infection and they boarded her 2 weeks clearing it up. So the vet called and said Sally and I were right, and nearly cried talking about how trusting and sweet she was while they medicated and put stuff in her eye. But if I hadn't had a Sally, I'd have had to put her down. So I'm not heartless, just pragmatic. Sally would never have sued me, the dog was on a 13 acre (Paso Fino) farm with almost zero risk for hurting anyone living with dog savvy owners.
As an aside, this same rescue though, nearly got shut down over placing an incredibly beautiful and equally unstable Pekingese in six, yes SIX FREAKING HOMES, with six bite incidents before they put it down. What made me furious is not only did they cause 5 people to get bitten after the first one, they also lost 5 homes that would have taken in and loved a dog that would never use their rescue again, and they assuredly told countless people never go to rescue. The damage just ripples out. So I oscillate between care for the dogs, and wanting to save them, and then balancing one dog against the damage it can do in so many ways beyond just a bite.
@naz-roseberry Hi there! I understand you're having a problem with Cutler being aggressive & biting kids so you're wanting to get him a new home, with no kids? How does this sound? Cutler living with a 60 yr. old, retired female, never married, no kids & rarely has any company, except adults a few times a yr. & on Sunday evenings (about 6 in a row), there's a 16 yr. old neighbor who comes over to watch an hour long TV show (an animal lover but will not bother the dog if told not to) & she just had to have her 16 & a half yr. old Basenji girl, (legally her companion animal), put down this past Aug. & she's looking for a Basenji who is out of the "puppy stage" so he won't use her toes as chew toys. She lives in an apartment complex with a 6 ft. heavy vinyl fenced back yard with a locking gate. The fence is solid so you can't see thru it & the yard is 15'x18' & if her dog is outside, she is too & there are no other animals. Is this the kind of home you want Cutler to have? If so, I believe we need to discuss this further! I really need to have another Basenji in my life & he will be loved & spoiled rotten!
@Nancy-Berry said in 7 year old Basenji who needs a family:
@naz-roseberry Hi there! I understand you're having a problem with Cutler being aggressive & biting kids so you're wanting to get him a new home, with no kids? How does this sound? Cutler living with a 60 yr. old, retired female, never married, no kids & rarely has any company, except adults a few times a yr. & on Sunday evenings (about 6 in a row), there's a 16 yr. old neighbor who comes over to watch an hour long TV show (an animal lover but will not bother the dog if told not to) & she just had to have her 16 & a half yr. old Basenji girl, (legally her companion animal), put down this past Aug. & she's looking for a Basenji who is out of the "puppy stage" so he won't use her toes as chew toys. She lives in an apartment complex with a 6 ft. heavy vinyl fenced back yard with a locking gate. The fence is solid so you can't see thru it & the yard is 15'x18' & if her dog is outside, she is too & there are no other animals. Is this the kind of home you want Cutler to have? If so, I believe we need to discuss this further! I really need to have another Basenji in my life & he will be loved & spoiled rotten!<<
And here is your Sally. 
A dog savvy secure home. Nancy ... I really hope this works out!
@DebraDownSouth Oh me too! I don't know how much longer I can stand being all alone! I'm just getting more & more depressed day by day & I know a Basenji would be the best anti-depressent I could get!!
@Nancy-Berry I forgot to ask if Cutler has been tested for Fanconi ~ I really hope he has been!
@DebraDownSouth I guess that maybe BRAT took Cutler or they found someone to take him. There hasn't been anything in here since 3 days ago when ar2003 posted that she had just submitted the form to BRAT, as someone had just suggested it to her. Oh well, guess that's the way the cookie crumbles! It won't be long before BRAT & Camp Basenji have more dogs up for adoption. I see they finally took the picture & info down on BRAT's website for the Senji girl that took my breath away & she's still been in my dreams! My 1st. girl was a red & white & my 2nd. girl was brindle. I know BRAT has a beautiful brindle that looks so much like my Dorie but the 2 problems I could possibly have with her is the bolting out the front door & the trick knee. I'd have to wait until her little knee cap slipped out of place & take her to my Vet (about 4 blocks away) & have them show me how to manipulate it back into place, then I'd be good with that! But keeping her from bolting out the front door! That area is way too wide for my metal gate & if I were to put up 2 baby gates (one on top of the other) ~ the property manager might be very unhappy with that!! But, I'm sure she's been unhappy before!! LOL!! I sure would've loved to had Chloe though. She was just so beautiful. I know I have to stop dwelling on her bcoz she is gone. So, since there's been no more posts from Cutlers family, I think that has "gone South" also! Sooo, my friends in here ~ I'm off to look at some more Senjis, if Camp Basenji has any! But I need to fill out their initial adoption form. I might fill out one for BRATs Kali with the trick knee & bolting issue. I think the bolting issue is the most worrisome flaw for me. Oh, it says she rides in the passenger seat nicely but then, down below, it says NO! But I'm sure the Coordinator could straighten that out easy enough! Later my friends ;=)
I would give it a day or so before I gave up, Nancy. They could be talking to BRAT, could be away for the weekend, whatever. Not everyone checks forums daily, especially if they are busy with other things.
@Nancy-Berry good morning Nancy. I just want to give you an update on Cutler. My wives parents have stepped up and are trying to see if Cutler can fit there. They have always enjoyed Cutler and think it could be a good fit. If not, you will be the very first person I contact. Let's give it a few days and I will let you know. Thanks again to you all during this tough &new terrain we're going through.
Naz
