What is the dog psychology behind licking their humans?

[DebraDownSouth]

Ewww, just ewww. Maybe because I start my pups on raw young, maybe… I don't know, but honestly have never had a dog regurgitate for the pups. In nature, it makes sense as they need a way to "carry" food.

I honestly always assumed the only bitches to regurgitate for puppies was due to puppies not being started on soaked kibble prior to weaning. I was grossed out so did some reading and found some others who have dogs who do it, but also found vet and text books that say the trait has been bred down so not that common, even vet advice to remove the bitch after feeding to prevent it so she gets the nutrients she needs, etc. So I learned something today I really could have done without.

[Quercus]

Querk (male) regurgitated for pups whenever he was around a litter when he was young. You could tell by his face that he was like "I have NO idea why this is happening" but it was clearly an innate response to being around a bunch of puppies. I can't remember if they licked his mouth, or were just skittering around him in general…

[Patty]

Debra, my puppies are offered raw ground beef from a few days old (or were - I no longer breed) which they'll lick. I never forcibly wean puppies just leave it to Mum. Your post is very interesting because in the light of your comments I now wonder now just how many bitches now do this.

I've always assumed regurgitation is the norm and wonder if the present native imported bitches do this? I have always endeavoured to breed an 'original' type. By 'original' I mean as those first imported here (UK). I'm now wondering if this has something to do with it and also think thatt I should ask more questions before taking things that my B's do as the 'norm'!!!.

[CanisBasenjius]

Well, first I will say I have a STRONG bias in my "who cares?" attitude about so called dominance. Honestly, it has zero relevance in dog-human relationships. If you like his kisses, let him do it. If you don't like it teach him to quit doing it.

Licking is typically an appeasement gesture, greeting, grooming or in pups a way to get Mama to vomit so you can EAT!

Lots of great links here: http://www.woofology.com/alpha%20myth.html

[DebraDownSouth]

Patty, I have only had Rottie bitches as an adult, and the issue sadly with them isn't usually making them stop but making them keep nursing. Many start trying to wean at 4 or 5 weeks. I had one bitch though that would, it seemed, still nurse til the dogs had their own litters, lol. At 7 1/2 wks I did make her stop. I have had rescue bitches of a few breeds. None ever regurgitated. But I called 5 other breeders in the last 2 days (Brittany breeder who has had 10 litters in 8 yrs, a Rottie/Golden breeder, another Rottie breeder and a poodle breeder). Only ONE had ever had a dog regurgitate for puppies. SO I am wondering if it's simply more common in the primitive breeds too.

Andrea, not sure what the "who cares" is about. If you don't care about the topic, why even click on it? Most of us are indeed curious it seems. However, amen on the alpha nonsense. More damage has been done to the human/dog relationship by morons like the Monks of Skete, Kohler and now Milan with the alpha dog stuff.

Are there DOMINANCE issues with dogs… you bet. But it isn't the same as alpha pack issues with dogs and you don't handle it with physical response and alpha rolls... but all that is another topic, not licking.

[Quercus]

Status…I like to use the term "status" instead of dominance, because I think it is more descriptive of what we see among social animals. Status changes between individuals depending on environment, social groupings, time and conditions. Some individuals are status seekers, some are always content with their status. Some easily, and naturally attain status among their peers, some don't...

It is far too simplistic to evaluate every and any interaction as either dominant or submissive, and doesn't give us a clear picture of the relationship between the individuals.

[CanisBasenjius]

@DebraDownSouth:

Andrea, not sure what the "who cares" is about. If you don't care about the topic, why even click on it?

Ha! Yep, totally mistook me, Debra. I don't care about "dominance"! It's a lot more constructive to decide if you are okay or not okay with any given behavior and then modify it as needed. "Dominance" and "dominant" are words that have a load of baggage and they are not clearly defined in most people's minds. I do care about dogs and people having healthy, happy relationships and find worrying about what is or is not "dominant" muddies the waters and can side track people in working with their dogs. It takes up brain space better dedicated to other things IMO. So that's why I say, who cares? Let's just work on the behavior!

Dominance certainly exists but it's contextual, fluid and not well understood. And, really, I find totally irrelevant between dogs and humans. If you define 'dominance' as having primary access to food, water, shelter and mates humans are by default dominant to dogs as we have absolute control over what and when our pets eat, whether or not they have water, where they live and their access to mates. We may fail to exercise that control but it is ours.

[Patty]

I agree so many people get hooked up on dominance and it seemed to be quite a phase over here when evry problem seemed put down to 'dominance' issues and Cesar Milan has a great following among the fraternity. Happily a much more enlightened attitude is becoming accepted.

Debra - it must be so difficult when a bitch doesn't want to feed puppies. Actually we sometimes have that problem with sheep too and they'll be quite forcible in rejecting their lambs. I've never had that experience with Basenjis but Gbala was still attempting to suckle from Spring (her mummy) when she was well on the way to 12 months old!! You must be right that it is the more primitive breeds that do regurgitate - unfortunately I've very little personal experience of other breeds where whelps are concerned and bow to your informed knowledge.

[DebraDownSouth]

LOL, Andrea thanks for clearing that up! And agree. On the "fail to exercise that control", lol guilty a lot with these basenjis. Sigh. I always say, in every situation, SOMEONE gets trained. Sadly sometimes the dogs train better than the humans.

Patty, hey, not so informed at all since I had NO idea it was common in any breed! It's fun to learn new things.

OMG reminds me of something about 15 yrs ago. Someone said "Do male dogs have nipples?" I thought, well DUH. But I went in and checked both the poodle and rottie. COULD NOT SEE OR FEEL NIPPLES. Okay, insane. I was on AOL at the time, and I imed no less than 20 dog folks and posted their responses. Almost none were sure, a few did as I did and checked with no real sure affirmation. Until I hit Brenda, my vet tech/co breeder friend. She basically asked what I and everyone was smoking (I was posting responses and I got them on the Rottie board). She said of course they had nipples. Didn't I remember them on puppies? They don't dissolve for crying out loud. On males they may become so flat or blend into skin color you don't notice them, but again, what were we all smoking cause she'd like some.

So to this day, when I have a stupid question I feel like I know but am not sure, I tell her I have a "male nipple" question.

LOL, and I saved the responses so I can still rib my fellow "thinking like stoned or drunken idiot without being stoned or drunk." Most of them showed, competed and several bred. I have no excuses for that day, lol.

Btw, have seen horses reject foals. Sadly, they can do so much damage it makes it almost impossible to force them. We had a Pasofino mare at the barn they actually TIED ONE LEG UP to force her to let the foal nurse and not kick him. Fortunately they were able to find a wet nurse because bottle feeding a foal not so much fun. My friend refused to breed this $30,000 mare again, btw. She said bad mothers shouldn't reproduce. Her husband wasn't too happy, but I applaud her decisions. The mare had one previous foal and wasn't happy with it, but not as violent as she was with the 2nd one.

[Patty]

I think we are far away from the original post but I tend to agree with your friend but we do give the sheep one more try especially if they are young, if they are no better then we don't breed from them again.

In my opinion good mothers produce future good mothers and vice versa and this applies to Basenjis too. I've always been fortunate in that respect in that I've never had a bad Basenji mother.

[elena86]

@DebraDownSouth:

I have never seen domesticated dogs throw up from face licking… it is grooming and bonding with domesticated dogs. It may well be hold over instinct in some way, but having had dogs, litters with moms, if licking caused puking, I am sure I'd have seen it.
But I went looking, and while I couldn't find it on NGeo site I found the following. But he is full of it. Even in the wild, dogs lick to GROOM, bond, etc also:

http://www.4vetclinics.com/articles/dog-licks-face.php

BUT found this one on wild dogs
http://www.umich.edu/~esupdate/library/97.01-02/mamakos.html

For anyone that's interested, the Pittsburgh Zoo has a pack of African Wild Dogs. I saw them a few weeks ago. Some of the reasons they're endangered is because the locals mistake them for hyenas and kill them. Also, these dogs have no fear of cars and get run over frequently.

[elena86]

African Painted Dog
African painted dogs (Lycaon pictus) are the size of medium domestic dogs. They are also known as African wild dogs, Cape hunting dogs, spotted dogs, and painted wolves. They have large, rounded ears and dark brown circles around their eyes. The dogs differ from hyenas, wolves and other dogs in that they have four toes instead of five.

Size: The average African painted dog weighs between 37 and 80 pounds and measures 24-to-30 inches high.

Life Span: African painted dogs can live up to 10 years.

Color: Their coats are mottled in shades of brown, black, and beige.

Continent: Africa

Range: At one time, more than half a million African painted dogs roamed all of sub-Saharan African, in 39 countries, and in large packs of 100 or greater. Now, only about 3,000-5,500 exist, primarily found in Eastern and Southern Africa, in Tanzania, Northern Botswana, and Eastern Namibia. Smaller populations can be found Zimbabwe, South Africa, and Tanzania, and even smaller groups in Zambia, Kenya, and Mozambique.

Habitat: African painted dogs roam the savannas, grasslands and open woodlands of this region.

Food: African painted dogs are hunters. They eat antelope, zebras, wildebeest, springboks, gazelles and impala.

Reproduction: African painted dogs are highly social animals, who live in packs. Normally only the alpha male and female of the pack reproduce, while other members help care for the young. Pups are born every year in a den, usually from March through June. A litter may contain as many as 16 pups. Pups are all black and white at birth but later develop tan spots.

Conservation: African painted dogs face many threats, from being trapped and hunted because they are perceived as threats to the stock animals of farmers and ranchers, to being killed by cars as Africa continues to develop. For more information, check out the Zoo's partnership with the African Painted Dog project in Zimbabwe.

Fun Fact: Their Latin name, Lycaon pictus, means "painted wolf-like animal."
African Painted DogPhotos

[sharronhurlbut]

Elena, thanks for the painted dog info. Very interesting.