@sinbaje:

Hi Patty,

If you are really interested in knowing the answer I would highly suggest ask the folks that are responsible for the Benin Avuvi's. So as not to post their private info to a public group -email me and I can send you contact info. Or if you are a BCOA member - look up: Susan Patterson, Anne Humphries and Brenda Greenberg Jones and drop them a line or give them a call. (I do not not include Marie cuz we know where she is and how to locate. I do not include Robert cuz I have no contact info for him but the others might) IMO, they are the only ones who can answer that question fully - the rest of us can only speculate and to be honest I would rather listen to fact than speculation.

As for Avuvi's being a distinct breed with the AKC - I am not sure what you mean unless you are refrring to the Avuvis of which Manu has written? If yes - I seem to recall Marie stating that Manu's dogs are not the same as the Benin but confusingly they share the same name so perhaps that is where the problems arise?

<shrug>I do not know but until such time that 1) they do not submit the dogs and the studbook is closed or 2) they submit but are denied - we can not say unequivaclly what they are or are not as there is no genetic test to prove or disprove otherwise.

Sure we can have our opionions but that is all it is - our opinion and only worth the monitor we type it on.

Again - go to the source(s) if you are truly interesrted.</shrug>

Avuvi is a fon word meaning Little Dog - it isnt the more common word for dog. Fons live along the West African Coast, in the southern part of several contiguous countries. North Benin has a whole different set of tribes and languages.
The name of Manu's dogs and our Benin dogs is coincidental to the fon language and the species (dog) and with Robert having contact with Manu. If you look at the BCOA guidelines for African imports you can see exactly where the Avuvis we speak of here are from. Manu has no connection with us. She did help out James J I believe with his dogs in a completely separate country/plan/expedition. Going back and googling Avuvi will bring in a lot of preliminary stuff by Robert, not necessarily relevant to the project related to the AKC/BCOA. This information can be used intentionally or unintentionally to confuse the picture and has been so use caution in interpreting it.

@sinbaje:

With out the dripping sarcasm - should make this a legal post:

I never said you specifically stated anything. However the implications were certainly there, in many of the postings not just yours, for people (sans Marie) to fill in the blanks and think badly or negatively about the reasons why they have not been submitted. I know how I read it and know from several private exchanges I was not the only one. Therefore I personally felt the need to find out vs just taking said implications as being based on any kind of fact.

I disagree. Whose impression should I give but my own?? How else does one start a conversation or query if not to give a bit of background based on my thoughts? Would you rather I send her a 'copy and paste' of all the posts and let her judge for herself? I would be more than happy to - folks just need to give me permission to do so and it is done!

Again - I never gave her particulars of who said what only what this readers overall impression was. And while I agree you never "said" anything per se, IMO, writing an open ended statement such as "obviously there was a reason she was not submitted" leaves much for the reader to fill in - which is of course where implications et al come in.

[qoute] In the end, I really have no interest in these particular imports and if submitted they would be judged as all the others have.

And THAT is the beauty of living in a world we do - interest is not forced on those who have none. I think that was KathyB's point - if they are not your cup o'tea - then you never have to use them but don't take away or make the decision for someone else who might have an interest.

Thanks for your reply Lisa. I will send along what you have written. Good stuff to know. I did not take her questions re: offspring to be "putting words" in anyone's mouths but I know we all read things how we see things.

Thanks too aAndrea - will be sure to send your positive thoughts to Susan as well.

The original tanza post is still up and Susan et al can make their own decisions about implications.

@sinbaje:

Nay Marie - yours are not the only posts to be deleted. My dripping in sarcasm post seems to have disappeared into thin air - luckily I have a copy of it if anyone cares to know what we are replying too. Nothing more absurd (or confusing) then to read replies to things that are no longer there.

Silly really we have to have a moderator step in to take care of things as though we are children vs the adults I thought we all were. And as you say - only certain posts from certain folks are targeted. Double tsk.

Heh! Kind of a waste of good material (sarcasm) but c'est la vie.

I dont say much about my dogs bc I see no reason to talk to anyone but buyers and co breeders and folks who are genuinely interested. I'm not exactly sure I have seen moderation done in precisely this way, but WTH.

@tlish:

so, do i have this process correct for fanconi testing?

1. register dog with phenome project (almost wrote 'phoneme' - you can tell i'm a teacher)
2. fill out an order for testing kit on OFA site

question - does the dog need to be already registered with AKC before you begin this process, or is that irrelevant?

thanks!

You do not have to register the dog with the Phenome Project. offa.org is doing the testing management so you can go straight there and look under DNA tests.

@DebraDownSouth:

Okay first, I also "read" the indication that there was some REASON Honey wasn't submitted with an inference, intended or not, that there was something wrong with her. I thought the implication was pretty darned strong…so am glad to have it cleared up.

As for Linda's post... why are you bringing it all up again? Pat said the pups were listed. She said nothing else.

But I will.. she is still listing under Basenji, she makes no note that they are NOT really basenjis and in fact lists herself as BCOA breeder when we all know this litter has nothing to do with BCOA but her listing it makes it seem so,and will have weight with the uneducated who go there for finding a dog. Further, she guarantees the health of the dogs that we all know she hasn't done the health testing on the parents.

And I find the colors a bit startling.

I wish her the best of luck, I wish those pups the best of homes, and I don't care to rehash the other thread. Life to me is pretty basic. You don't test before breeding, you aren't responsible and no dancing undoes that. You advertise dogs as one thing hoping to snare the unsuspecting, you aren't responsible. I judge the actions of people and anyone who pretends they don't judge others is a liar. We ALL make judgments, it is the basis for decision making.

The large range of natural colors of the basenji were severely culled from the beginning. You can tell this by looking at the standard and seeing what is specifically pointed out as undesirable. Or you can read VTW. Those are traits that were seen in nature and not desired by the Victorian show breeding class. Brindle used to be one of them.

No one gets a dog that doesnt understand 100% what they are getting. i take back and I dont really want to have to take back.

@tanza:

Not sure what your point is…. All I said was that there is a reason, I never stated that I had any idea why, be it good, bad, indifferent... It was RMH that assumed that I was saying there was a "bad" reason they have not been submitted... not me. And I think Honey is very much Basenji Type.

And to email her and give her "your" impression of what was implied is improper at best. Again, I point out, I said nothing about her bitch, her conformation, her health testing, etc... only that "obviously" there was a reason that she had not been submitted... it was others that put words in my "mouth"... making it look as if I thought there was a "bad" reason.

In the end, I really have no interest in these particular imports and if submitted they would be judged as all the others have. IMO until they are admitted to the Stud Books they should be referred to as something other than Basenjis.

United Kennel Club may beg to differ. They also register "Basenjis" and all the 2004 imports are so registered. It;s kind of a strange argument - I list my dogs under "Basenjis" so people who are interested in such dogs have a chance of finding them. Everyone who expresses interest knows what he or she is getting from the first moment we have contact.

@agilebasenji:

Oh, I'm so disappointed I missed an oppertunity to see Honey when she was out here. I have greatly admired pics of her. I'll second what Andrea said in wishing Susan all the best in her personal life and in getting her pups put through the process of AKC registration. I'm not really sure why the lack of pics from one pup would cause the process to slow/halt as most of the dogs submitted have 0 pups to their name.

There are 4 pups from one litter and several pups from the second 2006 litter. That's 4 of the 5 intact 2004 imports that have litters.

Further, I have 3 pups from a litter of my Avuvis, but one is a 2006 pup, so only one of the Avuvi 2009 with pups to track down

@Alex:

Folks,

Once again, please respect our forum guidelines. If you can not find a way to settle your differences of opinion in a civilized manner, our advice is to leave this topic alone.

Repeat offenders are going to be treated with a permanent forum ban.

But he/she started the fight by attacking me! Can't I defend myself?

This is a forum for the discussion of Basenjis, not a dueling society. If you feel attacked, please report it to the admin and then ignore the poster. Remember, however much you were provoked, if you attack a poster personally then you are just as guilty of breaking the rules.

If you feel that you need stop posting for a while because of a conflict with other members, please step back and email us directly before posting publicly about the issue.

We created this rule to make sure Basenji Forums has a friendly environment for discussion about Basenjis, as well as to shield new members from any arguments that could be brewing in the community. Best way to comply with this rule is to just let it go and move on.

Where is it written that MY comments get deleted, yet ppl libeling me have free run of this forum? I dont think it is necessary to speculate about my ad - go look at it yourself and if you are a serious buyer, you can ask me anything and I will tell you everything, asked or not.

Marie

@tanza:

By the way, not that it has anything to do with Susan Patterson (well maybe indirectly) but RMH's puppies are on puppyfind.com

Susan has been breeding for 40 years and has no need for an ad service. Any exchanges between her and me has been to edify me. Her association with me came about bc she decided I would make a good Avuvi owner and she sold Apollo to me. I subsequently got Macho, my other Avuvi 2006 from the second of two Avuvi litters, so another long time breeder was also satisfied.

I certainly have no influence on Susan who is as decent a person and as responsible a person and breeder as you could want. Your implication that my association with her reflects poorly on her is laughable. Anyone who would criticize Susan as a breeder I would have to question their facts or reasoning. It is just unimaginable to me. Plus she is just a caring, empathetic person and has a brilliant mind.

She has been actively breeding for decades but has had to put dog activities on hold due to life circumstances. If she breeds again, you could do a lot worse than to look for a Calypso basenji, domestic or African.

@tanza:

By the way, not that it has anything to do with Susan Patterson (well maybe indirectly) but RMH's puppies are on puppyfind.com

If my posts are to be blocked then it is unconscionable that posts about me should be allowed.

Yes, my pups are on Puppy find. So are lots of other good breeders. So are puppy millers and BYBs. Caveat emptor. Thanks for the advertising. There is a lot of info and some photos in my ads. You all know what questions to ask. It has been the only online service I have used so far but it isnt the ad service that defines the quality of the breeder.

Pat did mention temperament and other potential negative issues that might be slowing down the application besides conformation. I and I presume Susan did not like the implication that there could be something besides conformation intrinsic to the basenjis from Benin that was negative. Perhaps she did not intend for her words to carry this implication but thats how it was read. My Avuvis are my best dogs, and I got some damn good domestic ones from a show breeder, as well as part owner ship of the 3rd Grand Champion basenji who is a very sweet tempered dog as well. In fact if you want a sweet temperament and health, and dont want an African, she would be someone to check with.

@sinbaje:

If by previous you mean the 2006/7 Avongaras and the Lukurus then your statement is not accurate. One Avongara and at least one Lukuru are listed with the OFA as IND. As we all (should) know IND are to be treated as carriers at this time because we do not know exactly what they are but presume they are either clear OR carrier. Until the direct test or test breedings to DNA clears are done we will not know definitively.

I meant the Avongaras of 1990 and the other Avuvis

I know of the other two, that is what I was referring to as the two Congo dogs with the allele. AFAIK those are the only ones so far. I thought the other Congo dog was a CAR.

@Patty:

:) :) OK, you can't accuse me of being a back yard breeder! lol :):)

I still want to see baby pictures… and while it isn't any of my business, I wondered if you had commitments for these babies.... and if not, maybe this thread will continue until they are all gone? LOL :D What is the longest thread on here, anyway? :)

Happy Holidays! Patty;)

Thanks.

As I said several times, I have photos and you can email me anytime and get them and any other info. I wont be back here unless necessary so messages to me through this thread or my profile might not get answered.

One pup is spoken for, one of the males.

Just had a lovely hour playing with the babies.

Marie

He is microchipped - ALL my dogs and pups are microchipped. Yes he is still missing, I still kick myself for not going over with him. He has a straight tail and is silent and very sneaky. However he is my best dog, and if anyone can survive out there he can. As long as he hasnt been hurt or killed he will be OK.

this is my boy and he is still unaccounted for :(

Marie

@rmholt:

There arent any of the older wiser breeders on here. If you want calm intelligent discussion and rational exchange of ideas, there are better places. There are many.

Sorry saw a few older wisers on here all of a sudden.

You know who you are<g>

I think about myself. If I were looking for a basenji from Africa, I would look under the category "basenji" so that is how I classify my dogs. Who would know to look under any other category I might make up? Again anyone inquiring gets plenty of information, probably more than they want.

One thing I dont want is someone wanting to return a pup bc it isnt a "real" basenji, and since I have a take-back, I explain in great detail what the pups' heritage is.</g>

@Quercus:

1. No, I wasn't saying you have a history of stirring up trouble…but you do seem to ask questions, or present ideas in a way that pisses people off...I don't always understand why. Marie has a history of stirring up trouble.

2. No, I didn't read your post as an accusation. I was just posting a general note about this thread, not your post per se. My point was that not everybody knows that people here know each other, and sometimes have a history.

3. No, I honestly don't know what JoT was referring to as your agenda. I didn't think you 'had a dog in this fight' so to speak....but I certainly am not privy the everyone's feelings or interactions with everyone else.

Seriously, I was just trying to help people out who are regulars on this forum that are thinking "wth? why are these people so angry about this thread" I have no personal issues with anything you have posted here.

My sin this time is to put up pups for sale and fielding accusations.

@DebraDownSouth:

I said: Even your involvement in the Lukuru project doesn't make you RIGHT or the ultimate expert on what is right for the breed.

However, lol, Dr Jo didn't say anything about the last imports, her views, etc… she only attacked Linda and indicated she was spreading propaganda to promote her agenda. THAT is the issue. Had Dr Jo stated her OPINIONS and why, this would have been a very illuminating educational discussion. All she did was ascribe such motives as if anyone who disagreed must have them as they couldn't actually have such an opinion. She didn't even say even say what she was attacking or what she assumed those motives were.

1. Jo has not seen my dogs, although she has tried to sneak her way in to see one of them by corresponding with someone who wants to adopt one of my imports, putting him in the middle.

2. Jo is not a judge or in any way certified to tell if a dog had basenji type as defined in the Western world. It has long been known, since 1875, that dogs from different areas have a different look. So of course West Africans will look different from Congo dogs.

@Patty:

Well, we all have to start at Post #1. And I say that respectfully to all newcomers here.

What I don't "get" is when a new poster shows up, leaves an inflammatory statement, and then settles into the background. ??? I mean, if you want to join the conversation and debate with heartfelt emotions, that is great! But if there are no follow up postings, how can we "WELCOME" you to the forum? :)

But alas, when I think of the different shades of blue… royal blue, turquoise, meadow blue, sky blue, cornflower, baby blue... there are many names for it. Miss Robyn... what are the other names for shades of gray? Grey? lol...

:) Cheers! :) Marie, have you re-homed any pups yet, lol????? :D

They are 4 weeks old. D'uh.

@tanza:

Avuvi Afonhaan (aka Honey) was one out of that group that if she had been submitted for the stud books through the BCOA process, she more then likely would have been accepted. However that was never done by her owner. Remember all, not only do they need to be of Basenji Type, but need to have good temperaments, health testing, etc. So there was obviously some reason that this little bitch was never put up though BCOA to be judged and voted to be admitted to the stud books.

Why dont you call Susan Patterson and ask her? There is NO REASON to keep Afonhaan out of the process that has to do with the dog or her pups (of which I have one, thank you, he is too tall to really show but was called "sound" by the judge. There isnt a thing wrong with him. Or with Honey. If she hasnt submitted yet, perhaps she has her reasons. Assuming there is something wrong is awfully presumptious and, in this case, wrong.

@sinbaje:

JoT:

Since you presume to know me as you state "Once again…" and I do not know of any Jo's in the DRC, nor have had any conversations with any person who lives in the DRC I can only presume this is Jo Thompson from Ohio?

Regardless, I would have you please re-read what I wrote before the public flogging; I specifically asked for credentials and stated "as far as I know..." so of course I do not know since I admitted as much. :O)

Sorry, but I did not jump to any conclusions. Asking for more information is not jumping to conclusions - it is seeking more information in order to come to a conclusion, any conclusion. And since I have not studied the Avuvi to the degree you apparently have, I have little knowledge in who did what, and when and where, so I do appreciate the history lesson.

Now then - I would love to hear what my agenda is if you would be so kind since I have no native dogs needing inclusion and do not plan to have any in the foreseeable future.

Thanks.

Robert Dean got his information about Benin dogs (the CURRENT Avuvis) from A Peace Corp worker and a native friend of his. He did a lot of casting about before landing on this area. Manou was not part of the 2004 and 2009 Avuvi imports at all.

The Fon language is spread along the coast of West Africa, not respecting country boundaries.

Jo is known to have misstated and misquoted Robert in the past in an attempt to discredit him and the Avuvi dogs. Again, ,this kind of thing has been run off of the other lists, and has landed in this area. I have to admit it was amazing to see Robert actually have to get on the lists to refute some of these misstatements and clarify them in the middle of a personal crisis.

Jo is known by me to have taken on a false identity in order to send information to someone involved in litigation with me. She could only have gotten the information only one way, which identified her as the culprit. She also offered to be of help against me. She had no personal interest in this litigation except to do something to me. I was cc'd all the info by the person she was trying to help and made a fool of herself with this person.

So I wouldnt call her "facts" objective.