Dominance between 2 Basenjis

[Quercus]

<_>

Ours do this too…it's like they need to make a big drama production about needing a sip of water...they are probably hoping we will bring the bowl to them, like good slaves ;)_

[JoeyQ]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! I get it now! Thanks for the insight!

[Basenji_Boy]

@Quercus:

Ours do this too…it's like they need to make a big drama production about needing a sip of water...they are probably hoping we will bring the bowl to them, like good slaves

Good Slaves…...too funny......but so true.:D

[Mantis]

my boy always picked on my girl. ight on her neck….preening her like a monkey and then going in for the chomps until she submitted through a yelp....in runs mom ...but when it came down to it, she could always throw him into a submission position with her choke hold...never anything viscious, just the "I am telling you I can kick your butt if I wanted too and it doesnt matter that I am smaller".

I always joked that you could take the girl out of the ghetto (puppymill rescue) but cant take the ghetto out of the girl, LOL

my rule of thumb for snarfy behavior is that once I can hear them growl talking during play they either have to go outside where they can start running or both have to lie down and hear that I am the alpha dog....

Most of the time they arent playing as rough as you think.....

The girls are always the alpha....LOL

[mahendra_suri]

In the wild canines will vy for dominance at an early age. They will play dominance games with lip licking, circling and hackles raised waiting for someone to end it. I won't. I let them fight until one screams. This usually ends the fight. If it doesn't, I will grab the victor by the nape, pin and place a firm grib over their throat. This gives them feeling of powerlessness they displyed over the other. That usually establishes dominance. Most importantly it tells the pack you are in charge and will have order. Fights from then on typically end when the first one cries.

My first Basenji was stubborn and thought she was dominate over me. The first 2 or 3 times I did this didn't work. Finally I squeezed her throat just hard enough and long enough to see the fear in her eyes. After that fights were few and far between. When they brawled after that and she always pinned the subordinates, they yelped and she would run to me for approval. Wanting to reinforce this behaviour, I praised her and gave her whatever started the fight. She would prance about and showboat to the other 2. Eventually she got bored, would drop the prize next to me and go sun herself in the backyard.

Basenjis, more so than other breeds, are extremely primal. They need to know you are in charge. The responsibility of being in charge is to respect the pack heiarchy.

A really good book on canine behaviour is the "Mind of the Dog" by Bruce Fogel. He is a British vet and Canadian schooled. I belive he graduated from vet school in Gelph, Canada. This first part of the book deals with the canine brain and is pretty boring unless you like nuerophysics. The rest is full of gems on how canines think.

If you want multiple Basenjis, you really need to understand how canines think and how pack mentality works.

[lvoss]

There are many ways to show your dog that you are the top of the pack that are far less likely to result in escalation.

I recommend anyone who adds a new dog or puppy to their household sign up for a positive reinforcement training class. Puppy kindergarten is a great place for puppies to get socialization with humans, start learning foundation skills, and to socialize with other puppies. For adult dogs a basic manners class is a very good way to build a vocabulary between you and your dog and build your relationship with your dog.

I would also recommend either reading Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas or watching the video The Language of Dogs. Understanding what the body language of your dog is saying can really help to head off problems before they begin.

[Quercus]

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Yikes! I think this needs a disclaimer 'please don't try this at home'! With today's sue crazy society, giving advice like that could get you into some serious trouble if the dog becomes terrified and aggressive due to abusive treatment.
Personally, I like to train my dogs to behave without seeing the fear in their eyes......

[jys1011]

I would have to agree with Andrea. I'm not a fan of pinning or submissive downs because it's not REALLY something done in the wild.

Most dogs will voluntarily put themselves into a down to show submissiveness. They pin each other down during play but rarely otherwise in when they are challenging each other for top dog position. Usually they'll do a face off if one backs down by lowering their heads or walking away the challenge is over otherwise there's a fight for top position.

[JazzysMom]

I have to admit, that post startled me also.
I don't want my dogs to "fear" me, but I do want them to know that I am the boss.

I don't have two Basenjis, but I do have two dogs. If they "argue" over a toy, and if the arguement doesn't become violent, I let them work it out.

If they actually get into a fight, which has only happened a couple of times and not any time recently, I use something {broom, etc} to push them apart, say "NO!!!" or "STOP!!!" and the aggressor gets locked in her kennel for a few minutes. If the fight began over a toy, that toy gets put away for a while.
If she gets snarky when released from the kennel, back in she goes.

Really, in the two years we've had Jazz they've only actually gotten into maybe three good fights. Jazz seemed to catch on quickly that that kind of attitude will get her nothing. And certainly won't win her the "prize" of the disputed toy. No way. No prizes for winning fights with her "sister".

I know many won't recommend this method because of the danger of being bitten while picking up the offending dog, but I'm pretty good at scooping up a wriggly Basenji-sized dog and holding it in a way that doesn't allow the teeth to get near me { hip on my hip, hand on shoulder}.

Although, Jazz has always been pretty careful about NOT biting at me when she's trying to get to Gypsy. {Jazz is always the aggressor in their disputes}. I think she learned early to be careful when she was young and the dogs got into a spat and my daughter was in the middle {it involved popcorn, and well, Jazz loves popcorn, thought Gypsy was moving in on it…..}. Jazzy did get a good nip on my daughter's arm {actually bled} and SHE seemed more startled by that than my daughter did! It was clearly accidental,and she's been very careful ever since.

Being unreasonably snotty with the other dog gets her kennel time. No discussion, just scoop, lock, and walk away. Works with her.

[JazzysMom]

Finally I squeezed her throat just hard enough and long enough to see the >>fear in her eyes. After that fights were few and far between. When they >>brawled after that and she always pinned the subordinates, they yelped >>and she would run to me for approval. Wanting to reinforce this behaviour, >>I praised her and gave her whatever started the fight. She would prance >>about and showboat to the other 2.

I guess this really baffles me, too.
I don't understand the rewarding of a dog showing dominance over the others. Why do you want to reinforce that behavior? Why does the winner of the dog fight get praised and rewarded?

[Mantis]

Finally I squeezed her throat just hard enough and long enough to see the fear in her eyes.

I would agree as well, this seems to be a bit extreme unless you have serious behavioral issues that should be addressed by a trainer or professional..this is a 25lb basenji….

I remember my x-husband thought dog training was to be done with a rolled up newspaper....that is how his dad did it...

I firmly believe that you can train your dogs to respect you as alpha without scaring them or physically touching them, not that it is a requirement to me, but I feel better knowing they understand what I am saying without me spanking or scaring them.

caesar knew i was mom and alpha by the role i played, bathing, walks, and correcting his behaviors....we did basic training together and he never was very difficult other than the puppy issues...

beta was a very difficult rescue and took me 2 years to finally get her settled. she occasionally got to that wild attacking hysteria (she would freak from something and revert back to whatever basenji horrific activity she learned in the puppymill). This is the scarey growling into the attack fighting. I learned to recognize the triggers and removed them from her environment.

For her it was food aggression that would get her to that place. She attacked Caesar once and that was it. I found a trainer to come into the home and he advised me to not have my two sleep together in the crate or eat together. With those things removed, she began to balance out and slide into the house rules slowly, but she came around.

When my kids get into the extreme and I need to express dominance and their actions will not be tolerated, i have found the scarey mommy voice that is never used, and a sit position immediately follows (because they understand, or if they are too crazed I help them sit)with a firm lock of the eyes until they look away is all that is needed. I do hold their muzzles (not hard, but require them to look at me).

I cant imagine anything crazier than Beta. She was a bit instable at times to say the least.

I really found comfort with training and behavioral issues within my basenji community and the dog parks. Being around other female basenjis really helped me recognize the difference between snarfyness, growl talking, growl play, and the attack or defend tones....

consistency wins the race....if your terms arent established, you cant expect them to understand what you want.

[Mantis]

and for the record, different strokes for different folks…not judging anyone

I think it is great to have a thread where you can share different methods to help new basenji owners or old get other ideas for different approaches....

[Quercus]

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Although I really resist the "dominance" model in dog training...the above is exactly (except I don't hold muzzles) what I do for serious infractions...usually by Querk, testing his limits. His basic obedience is so strong..that even though he REALLY doesn't want to listen to me, he will. If he is angry, I will tell him to sit, and then down...usually he is complaining the whole time...then he must stay until I release him. By then he is all apology...no actual physical touching needed.

[Quercus]

<_>

I absolutely separate, and/or pick up dogs during a fight. And I have been bitten…but my goal is to end the fight as quickly as possible. I don't care who started it, or who is ready to finish it. Actually sometimes it is really hard to tell who started it. But I grab collars, pull them apart, and pick whoever is closest up...and hold her WAY up so the dog on the ground can't get her, because she will try. Sometimes you can't let either one go long enough to pick one up...and in that case I just hold them apart and drag them to a door I can push one through...good times, huh? We haven't had a fight like that in quite a while (knocking on wood).

I have also found that fights that are about *things...toys, bones, wrappers, birds...are easier to get past than the ones that area about status. It seems like when one female decides it is her time move up, those fights end with either permanant separation or death...but that is just my experience._

[JazzysMom]

Although I really resist the "dominance" model in dog training

I use the words "dominance" or "alpha" or "pack leader", "boss", "Queen" [as in , Jazz may be the African princess, but I am the Queen."} pretty interchangeably, and mean by it that I {well, and the other humans in the household, but mostly me } determine what behaviors are acceptable in the house/car/yard, etc.
I get the feeling that most on the list do also.

[Quercus]

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Yep, I would describe this as "leadership"....and dogs definitely need stong, consistant leadership.

[Mantis]

at the dog park occasionally you will see a dog fight in the larger breeds, they typically play rougher…..more chomping action vs. basenji boxing....

the typical dog park protocol is pulling them apart, or the safe route is the bucket of water....total distraction!

can you imagine doing that with basenjis.....screams like little girls!! LOL