@zande - Head collar and Halti are pretty close to one in the same. At least the ones that I have seen used. Basically used the same.
Pet store basenji :(
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to an extent.
but no one is answering my question. Do people that cant afford to buy from a breeder not deserve to have a dog?
Because i know most of my family and friends never bought from a breeder. I guess we're all supporting mills. Before this Fanconi test , which can come back indeterminate, ANY SINGLE BASENJI sold, from a breeder OR a puppy mill could have fanconi. Rocky was bought from a "reputable" breeder, and after arguing with her about Mia not being from tested parents, she told me he could have it because his mother was a carrier and his father is dead and cant be tested. So what happens now? absolutely nothing. he's my dog. Mia's my dog. I couldnt care less if they are sick or not. they will both be taken care of regardless.
Mia quite possibly could be from a puppy mill. But shes happy and healthy and thats all that matters to me. Sorry, i guess i'm a horrible dog owner, and i'll just stop arguing.
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so what happens when the dogs that are bought at a pet store are taken to shelters because they cant be taken care of and are re-homed because they are homeless? regardless those dogs are going to be adopted out again.
The cycle doesn't end because like it was posted before, the dogs either get sold for really cheap, or sent back to the breeder to be sold somewhere else or used to continue the problem. I dont understand how not buying from pet stores solves this problem at all. Especially with the internet and all of the sites to buy dogs on it.
To say dont buy a dog except from a breeder who does all kinds of testing is crazy. Not everyone can afford that. That's like saying if you cant afford to buy from a breeder you shouldn't have a dog. Beings that "responsible" breeders will take back a dog if there are ANY problems.. why are there so many dogs in shelters? adopting dogs, then, seems to be supporting mills.. at least thats how it sounds.
BRAT fosters out B's that were once pet store dogs. Does that mean that they are supporting mills?
First of all any dog that is adopted from a rescue or shelter is not supporting the mill that produced the dog. The miller has already gotten their money for that dog or even better didn't make any money from that dog because they couldn't place it and will be less likely to breed another litter. Every time a for profit breeder makes a profit for the sale of an animal irregardless of the reason it will only encourage more breeding for profit.
The statement that asking that anyone who is going to add a dog to their family to so by either 1. Buying from a responsible breeder or 2. Adopting from a rescue or shelter, is not crazy. A responsibly bred purebred is often less than half the price of a pet store puppy and the long term savings from the additional support and the lower risk of long term expensive inherited disorders is a significant benefit for buying from a responsible breeder. It is also important to stress if you can not afford the purchase price of a responsibly bred dog then you may be in trouble should your dog require any medical care and I think we have all shared enough stories to know that the likelihood that you will find you need emergency vet care at least once in the lifetime of your dog is pretty high. Rescue offers a lower cost option with the trade off of not knowing the background of your dog but if you bought from for profit breeder you would have little usable information on the background of your dog anyways so this way you are not supporting a cycle of irresponsibility.
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so what happens when the dogs that are bought at a pet store are taken to shelters because they cant be taken care of and are re-homed because they are homeless? regardless those dogs are going to be adopted out again.
The cycle doesn't end because like it was posted before, the dogs either get sold for really cheap, or sent back to the breeder to be sold somewhere else or used to continue the problem. I dont understand how not buying from pet stores solves this problem at all. Especially with the internet and all of the sites to buy dogs on it.
To say dont buy a dog except from a breeder who does all kinds of testing is crazy. Not everyone can afford that. That's like saying if you cant afford to buy from a breeder you shouldn't have a dog. Beings that "responsible" breeders will take back a dog if there are ANY problems.. why are there so many dogs in shelters? adopting dogs, then, seems to be supporting mills.. at least thats how it sounds.
BRAT fosters out B's that were once pet store dogs. Does that mean that they are supporting mills?
First of all any dog that is adopted from a rescue or shelter is not supporting the mill that produced the dog. The miller has already gotten their money for that dog or even better didn't make any money from that dog because they couldn't place it and will be less likely to breed another litter. Every time a for profit breeder makes a profit for the sale of an animal irregardless of the reason it will only encourage more breeding for profit.
The statement that asking that anyone who is going to add a dog to their family to do so by either 1. Buying from a responsible breeder or 2. Adopting from a rescue or shelter, is not crazy. A responsibly bred purebred is often less than half the price of a pet store puppy and the long term savings from the additional support and the lower risk of long term expensive inherited disorders is a significant benefit for buying from a responsible breeder. It is also important to stress if you can not afford the purchase price of a responsibly bred dog then you may be in trouble should your dog require any medical care and I think we have all shared enough stories to know that the likelihood that you will find you need emergency vet care at least once in the lifetime of your dog is pretty high. Rescue offers a lower cost option with the trade off of not knowing the background of your dog but if you bought from for profit breeder you would have little usable information on the background of your dog anyways so this way you are not supporting a cycle of irresponsibility.
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Heather, I so hope you don't think we are dissing you.
We are just trying to explain.
I don't breed or show, just do rescue. So, I know about the general public and where they get their dogs, the other on this list do as well.
Pet shops charge so much for a dog who health is ??? where a responsible breeder puts tons of time and heart into each litter they breed.
They don't sell "to just anyone" but your posts show me your not the general "I want" public.
Most pet shops pups are impulse buys with little thought into the health, or what is needed to raise a happy dog.
Its the puppy in the window…
So, you have a chance to get a blood test to find out what your dog has. The fanconis test is $60 and more work is being done each day.
I have done that on my 2 and its worth the price for me to have some
idea of what is coming.
None of us humans, dogs/ have a clear pass on total health until we die of old age.
BUT quality breeder just work so hard to stack the deck in the right place.
When we get pet shops dogs, we are not getting the information re total linage and health.
That is what buyer beware means.
Is that any more help.
I really want to help you be clear on this.
If we need to go private, please, lets do. -
Before this Fanconi test , which can come back indeterminate, ANY SINGLE BASENJI sold, from a breeder OR a puppy mill could have fanconi.
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but indeterminate is between clear and carrier…not carrier and afflicted/probable afflicted. So if there is an inderminate, it is as good as clear or carrier as far as pet ownership is concerned. In a breeding situation, with an indeterminate, I believe a responsible breeder would wait for the new test to be made available before breeding an indeterminate dog if the plan was to breed it with a carrier.
And while your statement is true that ANY SINGLE BASENJI sold could have fanconi (prior to the DNA test that started last year)...prior to the test being available last year, reputable/responsible breeders weren't making breeding decisions without the consideration of fanconi and without researching the dogs in the pedigree lines...
My understanding from the test results that have been posted on OFA...while some results were surprises, many were what was expected. To me that says that many breeders did a good job of figuring out which lines/breedings ran the risk of fanconi and planned accordingly.
Puppy mill breedings do not take into account any health information...period...puppy mill breeding is purely for profit, it is as simple as that.
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I was thinking that is correct as well, but someone mentioned something about a random mutation or something like that??
I just can't remember the term they used. -
I was thinking that is correct as well, but someone mentioned something about a random mutation or something like that??
I just can't remember the term they used. -
Sorry for the double posts.
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Speaking of supporting pet stores that do not sell puppies and kittens - I was at the Petsmart in Frederick, MD this weekend. There was a guy out in the parking lot selling puppies out of his van. He had some of them in an exercise pen. The manager went out and booted him off the property.
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I think that people are completely confusing what other people are saying.
I don't buy from pet stores that sell puppies for profit. My reasoning is that these puppies come from mills, which I do not want to support, so those stores will remain in business because of the profits from their puppies & also all supplies they sell. BTW, people who but from pet stores waste money IMO because you pay double or more for a dog in which came from a puppy mill with no testing for health, no care to temprement, no breeder responsibility, etc.
That being said, I think aniaml shelters are a wonderful place & have had several dogs from shelters throughout my lifetime. In fact, Dallas is the first pure bred I have ever had. We only went with a pure bred vs. adopting a mutt because we wanted specific qualities associated with a basenji, mainly due to Mark's allergies. Supporting an adoption service is supporting helping out homeless animals. Those animals did not necessarily come from a pet store. They could come from a long line of strays, a pet store, a breeder that for some reason or another the family didn't contact before turning it over to the shelter, etc. So supporting a shelter does not mean you are supporting a puppy mill, which is exactly the opposite of pet stores which sell puppies for profit. For every puppy purchased in a pet store, that is one more litter that a poor abused, starving dog will be forced to have in disgusting living conditions. Without selling those puppies or supplies from these type of stores, they lose business & ultimately [hopefully] go out of business thus eliminating one more place for puppy mills to send their pups.
Also, heather, it isn't that puppy mill puppies shouldn't be bought because of health [although that is many invidiausl reasoning] but it's because of the living conditions these poor animals [the sire & dam] are put through to have their puppies. They are money makers, plain & simple. I don't think any human being would want to be put through that treatment so why should we put man's best friend?
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Glad the manager took steps to remove the guy from the property.
I just shudder when I see folks passing out pets from the front of the grocery stories.
Just awful how some of these babies end up. -
Also, in re to Fanconi, if we ever want to eliminate the Fanconi disease in this breed we simply cannot have dogs who are untested being bred. I'm sure anyone whose pup ends up with Fanconi will still love their dog & care for them [hopefully using protocol] but the point is, buying a puppy whose parents haven't been tested means you are supporting the breeding of untested dogs & again, untested dogs could simply be spreading this awful disease when it would be beneficial for every single Basenji for the disease to go extinct.
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The current DNA linked marker test that is being offered gives 4 possible results: Probably Clear/Normal, Probably Carrier, Probably Afflicted, and Indeterminate between Clear and Carrier. This is not the same as saying their status is the same as having no test information. From a puppy buyer's perspective an IND status means the dog will not become symptomatic for the disease. From a breeder's standpoint the dog should only be bred to dog that has tested Probably Clear.
Now, something that I think people also do not understand if they are looking for "just a pet" is exactly how much information and risk mitagation a responsible breeder can do from good in depth pedigree health data. OFA has a really good article on how to use vertical pedigree data to reduce the incidence of complex inherited disorders such as hip dysplaysia and they work. When you buy from a responsible breeder they collect this information and use it to make as good a breeding choice as they can from the information available. It is not perfect but it is far better than shear dumb luck. With DNA testing there is no guess work, if a dog has a clear parent and the disorder is recessive then they will not get the disease.
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Also, heather, it isn't that puppy mill puppies shouldn't be bought because of health [although that is many invidiausl reasoning] but it's because of the living conditions these poor animals [the sire & dam] are put through to have their puppies. They are money makers, plain & simple. I don't think any human being would want to be put through that treatment so why should we put man's best friend?
Actually, I'd say puppy mill puppies shouldn't be bought because everytime a puppy mill puppy is purchased from a pet store, it keeps the puppy mill in business…simple equation of supply and demand. And a purchase (which keeps the mills in business) thus supports the deplorable living conditions of the animals and the complete disregard of the health of the animals being bred and the puppies that are being sold.
Imagine a world with no pet stores that sold live animals...without that sort of outlet to sell large amounts puppies, it would be tough to keep puppy mills running.
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do you even realize the amount of dogs on the internet for sale? puppyfind.com had over 350 basenji puppies on it when i looked at it in january. even if Pet stores were not around they would still get sold. until you can shut down every website that is used to sell dogs nothing will ever change. i dont think you realize that.
and nina, im not saying that adopting a dog is the same as purchasing a puppy mill puppy.. youre just getting the same stock. temperment, and all that is unknown in adopting just as bad as if you are buying from a pet store. and if youre breeding a dog well then yeah, health is important, but if youre getting your dog fixed, it doesnt really matter what conditon the dog MAY or MAY NOT have.
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I always feel so sorry for any breed of dog kept at those horror puppymills.
Its just awful! Someday, maybe we will be able to save them all. -
I would be so interested to see how many of these e-mail ads are put out by puppymillers…
Anyone have any idea?
Heather, this is why education and one dog at a time will work.
It won't be quick...but if nothing else, it helps the dog we are working with.
It has to start somewhere...rescue and education are the key, imo. -
i agree. i just dont understand how someone can say the only way to have a dog is to buy from a breeder.. or adopt ( which is the same type of stock that would be found in a pet store and theres NO information on the dog at all) im not saying puppy mills are okay, because they arent. But to say that its a consumers fault that they are still around is completely mind boggling to me. Shouldn't it be the governments fault? the USDA or something along those lines ? To blame consumers for puppy mills existing is crazy to me.
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do you even realize the amount of dogs on the internet for sale? puppyfind.com had over 350 basenji puppies on it when i looked at it in january. even if Pet stores were not around they would still get sold. until you can shut down every website that is used to sell dogs nothing will ever change. i dont think you realize that.
Ummmm…yes...I realize that they are for sale on the internet, I know the internet well
. I failed to use the internet in my simple example. So the same would be said for purchasing a dog over the internet. No demand, no supply, no business...same exact issue. The key is educating people to why they should buy from responsible breeders. -
lol just pointing it out
but like i've said before.. not everyone can AFFORD to do that.
and online, a lot of them are CHEAPER than a breeder, not more expensive, like in a pet store.
