In-Breeding/Line Breeding

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  • QuercusQ

    Perfect explanation by Lisa. Line breeding is HOW breeds are made. It does not create genetic diversity…but that isn't usually the goal in domesticated animals. The goal is to set type, and preserve desirable attributes.

    Andrea Walters

    Quercus Basenjis

    NW Ohio

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  • tanzaT

    There can be genetic problems with a breeding as you describe in your email… difference would be testing.. and it is just a possible to have them as with a father/daughter, mother/son, brother/sister.... the key is testing and also testing the sibs... looking at a vertical pedigree...

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

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  • lvossL

    Another thing to be aware of is that even just because a pedigree looks like it may be a outcross in 3 generations it may have quite a high COI, coefficient of inbreeding, when you look at it over 10-15 generations. It is really important to look at the whole pedigree.

    Line breeding is not a bad thing in and of itself and is a tool in a breeder's toolbox but it is really important that it is done with good vertical knowledge of the pedigree

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  • tanzaT

    @lvoss:

    Another thing to be aware of is that even just because a pedigree looks like it may be a outcross in 3 generations it may have quite a high COI, coefficient of inbreeding, when you look at it over 10-15 generations. It is really important to look at the whole pedigree.

    Line breeding is not a bad thing in and of itself and is a tool in a breeder's toolbox but it is really important that it is done with good vertical knowledge of the pedigree

    Very well put, Lisa

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

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  • WBLW

    Thank you everyone for al the great info!!!!

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  • dashD

    I thought one of the attributes of the Basenji was how close they were to their roots. I understand in certain breeds that were "created" like pugs, bulldogs etc; they would have to breed closely to get that look because their is no way those dogs would survive in the wild. And also with the African projects the thought was to keep the Basenjis diverse in the genetics so they don't become like the other breeds. One of the major issues with the close breeding is a huge problem in other breeds. Am I totally on the wrong page here?

    Jennifer

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  • lvossL

    There were about 20 dogs that contributed to the what is now the basenji breed as it exists today as a registered breed prior to the new imports. Of those 20 dogs there are some that are no longer represented in any dogs of the modern population. The "new" imports of 87/88 included 10 more dogs that were bred from though again some are no longer represented in any dogs of today's population. There are now very few places in Africa that are remote enough to still have true basenjis. It is also extremely expensive to import these dogs. Though the basenji is a landrace breed and may have more founders than some breeds we still have relatively few founders.

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  • QuercusQ

    @dash:

    I thought one of the attributes of the Basenji was how close they were to their roots. I understand in certain breeds that were "created" like pugs, bulldogs etc; they would have to breed closely to get that look because their is no way those dogs would survive in the wild. And also with the African projects the thought was to keep the Basenjis diverse in the genetics so they don't become like the other breeds. One of the major issues with the close breeding is a huge problem in other breeds. Am I totally on the wrong page here?

    No, you aren't on the wrong page ;) Breeding, and maintining a breed is always a balance between two main things; a) maintaining a diverse enough gene pool that will sustain healthy reproduction and b) trying to breed for desirable traits… usually those traits are physical or "type", sometimes they are less concrete like temperament, working ability, and sometimes health.

    If you go exclusively in one direction, where you are breeding for maximum genetic diversity, you most likely will be unable to predict what your puppies will look, or act like. For some people that isn't a problem. Some breeders in our breed are ONLY breeding for genetic diversity..and they are mainly dealing with the new Africans.

    If you go exclusively in the other direction where you are only breeding to fix type (or be able to predict that your puppy will have certain attributes that you desire) you will lose genetic diversity, and you may run into one of two possible health issues related to that, one is reduced fecundity of your breeding stock, and the other is obviously having genetic recessively inherited disease expressed, and carried throughout your line. There are breeders in our breed who almost exclusively line breed. You can usually tell their dogs because they are VERY similar in type. This type of linebreeding is common, but kind of a lottery, because if you aren't screening your dogs, or there are diseases in the breed that are late onset or you don't know how they are inherited, you may not know exactly what genes you are doubling up on. If you start with genetically clean dogs, you may win the lottery, because you won't be breeding into lines with problems. But it is rare that you can exclusively line breed for long periods of time before you find yourself wishing to cross out to another line for some reason.

    So most breeders do a bit of both, and everybody falls somewhere in the spectrum. Close breeding isn't really a huge problem for any breed per se. Poor breeding decisions, lack of knowledge about how disease is inherited, lack of adequate screening techniques, people breeding with disregard to health...those are the things that have put some breeds in a bad place.

    You mentioned Pugs and Bulldogs as an example...but they aren't really poster children for inbreeding. Their issues are different, in that humans shaped the breed into something that isn't consistant with health...I really don't get that...but it isn't the fault of in- or line breeding.

    Thanks to anybody who made their way thru my essay ;)

    Andrea Walters

    Quercus Basenjis

    NW Ohio

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  • WBLW

    Andrea, thank you for your essay it was very informative!!

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  • dashD

    Lisa and Andrea, Thanks for explaining that. I will tell you how it came up. I am not criticizing anyone and I don't want to offend any breeders so please understand I am just trying to learn and understand better.
    I have met 2 breeders outside of this website. I have no question that both have the best interest for the breed in mind but it seems for different reasons. CarolAnns Lukuru dogs are very diverse in the gene pool but don't necessarily have the exact look of the basenji I am used to seeing. Sue Kite (I met her this weekend) mentioned she bred a brother and sister but she wanted to keep the line traits and being that she has top B's in the show ring is probably why.
    9 I think it may have been the avongara line as well. You guys probably know better than I do.) Her little girl I saw was exactly what I expected to see and she was beautiful. I had previously considered in-breeding and line-breeding to be the same thing but I realize now there is a distinction. It does seems to be acceptable as long as all the necessary tests are done and they aren't in-bred to many times. That just seems icky. :rolleyes:

    Again the essay was great! I did have to do some research to what founders were. I think I got it now.

    Jennifer

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  • tanzaT

    @dash:

    Lisa and Andrea, Thanks for explaining that. I will tell you how it came up. I am not criticizing anyone and I don't want to offend any breeders so please understand I am just trying to learn and understand better.
    I have met 2 breeders outside of this website. I have no question that both have the best interest for the breed in mind but it seems for different reasons. CarolAnns Lukuru dogs are very diverse in the gene pool but don't necessarily have the exact look of the basenji I am used to seeing. Sue Kite (I met her this weekend) mentioned she bred a brother and sister but she wanted to keep the line traits and being that she has top B's in the show ring is probably why.
    9 I think it may have been the avongara line as well. You guys probably know better than I do.) Her little girl I saw was exactly what I expected to see and she was beautiful. I had previously considered in-breeding and line-breeding to be the same thing but I realize now there is a distinction. It does seems to be acceptable as long as all the necessary tests are done and they aren't in-bred to many times. That just seems icky. :rolleyes:

    Again the essay was great! I did have to do some research to what founders were. I think I got it now.

    First of all the Lukuru dogs are not registered Basenjis at this time, so they can not be used in the gene pool (at least not to get AKC registered Basenjis).. As for Sue, that was her and Jeff that did a brother/sister and yes it was Avongara lines. The reason was they wanted to see what they got and what traits were dominate, Andrea, you might want to jump in since you have one of the pups…and these were not show dogs... and again as long as you know the lines and do the health testing, not always a bad thing... both are acceptable... Sue and Jeff have done some close breedings as in uncles to nieces....

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

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  • QuercusQ

    <>
    Right...I wasn't sure if that was the litter that Sue was referring to? But I don't know of her doing any other brother/sister breeding.
    So yes, Ariel is a product of that breeding. The idea was to do a test breeding to see what genetically, if anything, might be brought out. By doing an inbreeding, you can 'expose' recessive genes, and see what you've actually got. You can also set (as in permanantly set) type...but, that wasn't the goal in Sue/Jeff's breeding. In this case, the two "best" "typey" puppies from this litter will most likely be bred on from, as long as they test out as genetically and physically healthy, they will most likely be out-crossed, to bring in different genes. Ariel's brother, George, is quite stunning, and is easily the best looking puppy in the litter. Ariel has a beautiful head, but is long in body, short in leg. Neither one is what we consider a "show dog" ;)

    Andrea Walters

    Quercus Basenjis

    NW Ohio

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  • tanzaT

    @Quercus:

    <>
    Right...I wasn't sure if that was the litter that Sue was referring to? But I don't know of her doing any other brother/sister breeding.
    So yes, Ariel is a product of that breeding. The idea was to do a test breeding to see what genetically, if anything, might be brought out. By doing an inbreeding, you can 'expose' recessive genes, and see what you've actually got. You can also set (as in permanantly set) type...but, that wasn't the goal in Sue/Jeff's breeding. In this case, the two "best" "typey" puppies from this litter will most likely be bred on from, as long as they test out as genetically and physically healthy, they will most likely be out-crossed, to bring in different genes. Ariel's brother, George, is quite stunning, and is easily the best looking puppy in the litter. Ariel has a beautiful head, but is long in body, short in leg. Neither one is what we consider a "show dog" ;)

    And the litter's sire is quite handsome!.... the dam of the litter, while long in the back and short on leg (like it sounds Ariel is) has a great temperament... both are great to build on the future.... and breeding out from these pups will be great to build on too....
    I am pretty sure that would be the breeding Sue was talking about, like you I don't know of any other brother/sister breeding she and Jeff has done.

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

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  • taylor.rene.gT

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    @bigv said in When to consider breeding?: So Taylor.rene . A little bit about my findings over the last 30 years is that every person who breeds dogs calls them self a responsible breeder? "" Yes, and fortunately for about 20 year now, anyone who really wants to verify if the breeder is actually believable can do so. Some breeders have no problem with incest for the sake of a ribbon as (dogs aren't people )..It is all about titles not the betterment of the breed. Being involved with race horses..<< Gosh, where to begin. " Incest" is a morality terminology, applied as everything from just not parent/child and aunt or uncles/nieces and nephews....all the way to 2nd or even 3rd cousins. It has little to do with genetics, hence adopted children count, and everything to do with moral views. That said, the human race is far from universally avoiding what would be called close line breeding or even incest. Isolated communities ...either physically by geographic terrain or socially by groups such Ashkenazi Jews and Romani, have limited gene pools. Ashkenazi Jews, btw, joke we are all no further than 5th cousins, but it is nearly true. Dogs and animals have no such manmade morals. A common propensity for many mammals to not to mate with closely related animals has nothing to do with incest. In limited populations they will mate, and the problems that arise if it occurs too often are due to decreased gene, increased expression of harmful genes etc. In controlled breeding, line breeding, even close, can be used to find if there are harmful recessives, or bring out desired recessives. If you think it isn't done with livestock, including horses, you're mistaken. With knowledgeable breeders who keep up on genetics, it absolutely is for the betterment of the breed, not a ribbon... Yes I am not a fan of line breeding but it seems that every zoo in the world has a similar view as they are always swapping animals to improve the genes . ...<<<<< Again, absolutely nothing to do with incest. Zoo animals, even those of nonendangered species, have a serious issue with limited gene pools. The level of that limitation cannot be compared to most pet breeds. We aren't talking many thousands of individuals, or millions, but sometimes 100 or less. Stud books are kept, for example, on all the polar bears in zoos and the effort to keep the diversification as high as possible is serious. (I'll leave out my views on them being in zoos.) So sure, if dog breeders were faced with THAT level of limited gene pool, line breeding would probably be avoided as much as possible. However, that all ignores the fact that dogs in any breed are mostly related.. If you go back 10 or more generations, you find the same dogs heavily in most lines. Sometimes 2 dogs that aren't related 3 generations back may share more actual genes than a closely related dog who has a lot of breeding out of the line on one side. That's where knowledgeable breeders come in. Having studied dingos for the past 15 years I can say without dought a bitch won't mate with relative... They are similar to basenjis in many ways. ...<< That's nice that you've studied them. But researchers are making new discoveries based on actual observations and finding a lot of what they thought isn't true. With massive interbreeding with domestic dogs, the pure dingos are disappearing. I envy those of you able to see them. However researchers suspect they have ...>>During this a hitherto unknown form of the “pure” dingo was discovered (based on DNA and skull features): a white dog with orange spots on the fur. This variant was considered as a single mutation or the result of interbreeding with an isolated dingo population.<< So they don't rule it out. (I downloaded to read, over 100 pages but you might love it. I'll save for later! https://web.archive.org/details/http://www.invasiveanimals.com/downloads/Final-proceedings-with-cover.pdf ) And my boy does have a title that no other basenji has . He is the first and only basenji to be approved by the Victorian State Goverment to be authorised to hunt deer on private and public land within its borders. But to some this would make him unsuitable to breed with you figure?<<< First, while you have done an impressive job with you dogs, I am pretty sure that is a privilege given, not a "title," and I am 100% certain his being able to would have nothing to do with whether anyone deemed him not worthy of breeding to. With the right health checks, good conformation, etc, I would think a good plus...especially if the bitch owner wanted to possibly enhance hunting ability. It simply isn't enough.
  • T

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  • lvossL

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    True Arlene good temperament and has passed all health tests,moves soundly the way a Basenji should are of utmost importance.It´s no good if the dog stacks perfectly when he´ll fall apart whilst gaiting.We have also the problem with too straight upperarms and crappy fronts which are sooo difficult to breed in one´s their gone.
  • tanzaT

    Tanza Breeding Plans

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    Well, while Lisa is enjoying her pups (and yes I am jealous…ggg)... We are still waiting for Mz Kylie to be bred, however today Baily was very insistent that he be able to spend time with her...gggg, so with any luck we will get a breeding today or tomorrow... if so we should be expecting at the end of January
  • S

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    @satieo: I was just curious, I saw the thread about ages of bitches but what about males is/should there be a cut off age for them? Obviously they shouldn't be younger than 2 for proper testing. No cut off age… as long as they are potent... I used a 14yr old with one of my litters and it was a natural cover.
  • WBLW

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