Sudden Seizure in 2yr old male tri

[Hana]

@Alex - didn't know what CBD was..... so I looked it up. Which kind are you using? I won't be buying a thing of course until I know more from his labs. Just curious! Was surprised at all the variations! :0 They did have one labelled pet though, green label. Thanks!

[Hana]

@LifewithAva thank you!

I realized I don't think I had even mentioned that the night I wrote my first post - he had FIVE seizures within a 30 hour period. So scary.

He's had only two phenobarbital pills so far and I'm shocked that he had zero seizures at all yesterday or last night?! Certainly not from the pills that I know - too early. So very curious what's going on. Thankful for every hour he's fine!!

I'm curious about your mention of high protein....... like many B parents we feed high protein, no grain foods..... but is that too much protein I wonder.

Right now we use Taste of the Wild - all flavors to keep life interesting. Tiki loves it. Hana only loves it the first 2 days of a new bag - then is bored. My breeder has been using Victor recently and is loving it tremendously. High protein, no grain again.

What did you feed your boy?

His paternal line breeder said if the labs don't reveal anything..... look to Cushings.......

Day by day right?

Thanks again!!

[LifewithAva]

That sounds like cluster seizures. My boy had both grand mal and cluster seizures. He was on a high protein diet because of the Fanconi and it was fine-- until it wasn't. I tried different brands that were lower in quality protein, fat and phosphorus (Solid Gold and Natural Balance LID were two), and supplemented them with veggies, fish oil and other healthy food. Eventually, I switched him to a homemade diet. The higher protein food didn’t cause his kidney issues, but it did elevate his values, and he only had seizures when his kidney values were higher than his “normal” range.

Your Tiki may not have kidney or liver issues at all, however, and his food is probably not a contributing factor. But if his kidney, liver and/or electrolyte values are elevated, that gives you a starting point for pinpointing the cause. Cushings, Addison’s, diabetes, thyroid, infections and toxins are all things to rule out. It could turn out to be idiopathic-- and he may never have another seizure. Let us know how he's doing!

[Hana]

Results came in - negative for Valley Fever, all blood and thyroid looks perfectly normal. AST and creatine were slightly elevated but still normal but that could have been cause by the muscle activity in all his seizures. Now we just see how he does for 3 weeks - retest his liver blood work and go from there. Could be simply that he has idiopathic epilepsy.... then to figure out the triggers. The temperature fluctuations from cold to hot for all those days camping - and elevation change from valley to mountains, all the packing and such....... could easily be a stress! Camping has always been fine before so is a mystery.

My vet is open to reducing, changing or stopping the phenobarbital - flexible. Will just take it week to week and see. So far he's very HAPPY, still playful and not at all groggy....... he seems his normal sweet self!

Here's a photo of Tiki (left) and Hana (right) camping. When temps dip, they have a sweater or Ruffwear. jacket on under their Ruffwear. harness. We do what we can to keep them comfy while camping!

[Hana]

Time for an update! Well, Tiki went 3.5 months seizure free. With our vet's blessing we had slowly reduced his phenobarbital by 1/2 pill AM then PM during that time. Mostly just to see if those prior seizures were an anomaly. Last month, his seizures came back. Not cluster, but at least 1-2 a week. We immediately put him back up to full dose of phenobarbital and took about a month to settle back in.

I did a ton of research for natural remedies and for now am doing the following: only using food and treats that don't have any rosemary product in it (even if last ingredient!) and also am adding 500mg 2x a day of a Taurine with B6 powder. (I take the gel cap a part and sprinkle in 1 tsp of plain yogurt.) He loves it.

So far been 1 week without a seizure. Trying to not get my hopes up....... but can't hurt. The research on Taurine is interesting! Apparently their bodies 'dump out' Taurine during a seizure, and that it's something that can help protect their liver - and their heart. Most dog foods don't add Taurine and it's something they should have. (Found in organ meat - uncooked ....... organ meat. Heat kills it's properties.)

I wrote to this company - sounds interesting - though not ready to dive into that yet....... our vet says 'it's extremely promising and I hope there are more studies on it but I can't officially condone it as the industry/products aren't monitored well yet."

[https://cannacompanionusa.com/](link url)

! I have friends whose family members have severe epilepsy and CBD has been a blessing to them....

Thanks for being there on this journey!

[DebraDownSouth]

@Hana said in Sudden Seizure in 2yr old male tri:

I did a ton of research for natural remedies and for now am doing the following: only using food and treats that don't have any rosemary product in it (even if last ingredient!) and also am adding 500mg 2x a day of a Taurine with B6 powder. (I take the gel cap a part and sprinkle in 1 tsp of plain yogurt.) He loves it.

So far been 1 week without a seizure. Trying to not get my hopes up....... but can't hurt. The research on Taurine is interesting! Apparently their bodies 'dump out' Taurine during a seizure, and that it's something that can help protect their liver - and their heart. Most dog foods don't add Taurine and it's something they should have. (Found in organ meat - uncooked ....... organ meat. Heat kills it's properties.)<<

Okay obviously I am happy your dog is doing better! But I also need to thank you. I have always known about taurine with cats, but never dogs. It's a good day when I learn something new, so thank you! I am going to share with others since cardiomyopathy is common with Rotties. Not that this will fix it, but it sure could help the symptoms, don't you think?

http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/cardiovascular/c_dg_taurine_deficiency

Essential, or indispensable amino acids are a group of amino acids that cannot be synthesized in the body and are thus required to be taken in through diet. This is a well known nutritional defect that is known to affect the health of cats when they are lacking taurine in their diet, but does not affect dogs in the same way, as dogs are able to synthesize taurine in their bodies. This is why taurine is usually not added to dog foods but is added to cat foods.

[Hana]

@DebraDownSouth Thank you for your reply! I'm beyond thrilled that this was an interesting and hopefully helpful bit of information!!!!

Some links to what I was reading include:

https://www.munch.zone/taurine-for-dogs/
http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/taurine.htm
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/taurine-and-epilepsy/
http://www.cotonclub.org/How_much_taurine.pdf

Other advice from the Canine Epilepsy Forum mentioned that while the Taurine didn't 'stop' seizures....... it seemed in their observation increase the threshold of sensitivity to a typical seizure trigger / reduce tremors in their circumstance etc. ....... if that makes sense. When they stopped the Taurine - the seizures and/or tremors came right back at same intensity.

In the least..... if I can buffer any phenobarbital 'effects' with a supplement to help in any way - it's worth it.

Also to note - one article it said that Taurine requires B6 to be assimilated (or whatever the word was they used....... can't remember.) I did find a Taurine with B6 at Sprouts and it was only $10 for 100 500 mg capsules.

[Nancy Berry]

@DebraDownSouth I had a 4 lb. Yorkie (Bubba) that had seizures, not long ones, maybe 45 sec. to a minute, but long enough to scare the bajeebers out of me! Her Vet (now deceased) asked me if she was ever exposed to "flickering" such as a strobe light or anything close to that, such as some TV shows or commercials! I had to think but the answer was YES ~ she was! I knew that lights flickering could cause seizures in humans but never thought about it affecting my (or any dog/cat) Bubba! The Vet said that the flickering of any form of light for as little as 2 sec., can cause a seizure in dogs/cats. I had a light-bulb go out one night & it flickered several times & before I could shut off the light, my Bubba went into a seizure lasting about 45 sec. She didn't foam at the mouth or have twitching of any body parts. She got a set stare of the eyes, stiffening of her body & when coming out of the seizure, she would try to pull herself forwards using only her front feet! I'd talk softly to her, using her name & rub her from her head down across her back. She would be a bit confused at first but talking to her brought her on out of it. But for Tiki, inside a sleeping bag, I'm 99.999% sure that there were no flickering lights of any kind! I just wanted to share the "flicker effect" with you all because both of my Senji girls watched TV & I worried about seizures with them but I was fortunate with my girls & neither had seizures. I've learned a lot about doggie seizures from this thread that, I'd have never thought of in a million years!! This is a GREAT FORUM!! I wish precious Tiki the very best in getting the seizures under control so there will be no more ~ period!! Both of your Senjis look just gorgeous!! I'll be watching for more posts on Tiki & hopefully, no more seizures! Nancy B.

[DebraDownSouth]

Nancy I have Springer Spaniel owner friends who have also reported flickering lights/seizures connection. Glad you brought that up!

[Hana]

That is very interesting about the flickering! There are so many triggers I'm sure!

Tiki had another seizure....... at least just he seems to be at one a week. Still horrible for him - and to witness. Gut and heart wrenching.

A few notes I forgot to mention as 'tips' that I read about if this helps anyone:

1. IF the pre-phase is noticeable a tiny bit of honey MAY snap them out of a seizure continuing (Tiki's come on FAST..... too fast to react.)
2. during a seizure to put an ice pack only on their lower back/spine area - take off when the seizure is over. (some have felt the 'after recovery' is quicker with ice.)
3. After a seizure 1-2 Tbsp. non-preservative natural vanilla ice cream OR a 50/50 combo of honey and butter!
4. A few kibbles at a time as a post-seizure snack. (Someone said a seizure is like running a marathon..... they are often famished after.) But not so many so they don't choke.
5. One thing my vet said is that pets have 'styles' typically of seizures..... ie. the aftermath recovery - some are confused, run around the house, spin in circles, are disoriented..... while others get aggressive! That the tend to react the same way for each seizure, like a pattern.
6. The one curious observation we had - was that Tiki's always seem to happen late at night and during a heavy rest or sleeping period. He's usually on the sofa - in the zone - relaxing for hours, before one comes on. Or he'll be sleeping on our bed - and at 3am starts a seizure. I wonder if there's a REM component or something going on with 'rest'. Curious if anyone else has noticed that. Storms trigger some dogs....... thunder and lightning don't phase ours....

Thanks for being there - you guys are fantastic and appreciated.

[Nancy Berry]

This post is deleted!

[Nancy Berry]

@Hana , It would be interesting to know if REM somehow, could trigger a seizure ~ it would be the same as flickering lights but without light. And he has them about the same time for each one he has. When I was a kid, we had this little terrier & at the first sound of thunder, he went into a seizure. If he was standing up, he would just freeze & fall over! His legs would stay stiff, his eyes were fixed & glazed & had the foam in the mouth. Scared the living snot out of me the first time I saw it!! I thought he'd just died!! The Vet gave us Valium to give him at the start of a storm & it would keep him from having a seizure. One time, it started to thunder & my Mom had me give him a piece of the Valium so I did & Skippy got up on the sofa & laid down. The storm turned away from us & was gone. I doped up our dog for no good reason! He went into a deep sleep & I sat next to him, crying on him as I couldn't wake him up ~ I thought I'd killed him!! My brother laughed at me, Mom told me to stop being silly & when my Dad came in, he told me Skippy would be okay & took me out to get a Coke. I never gave Skippy another pill of any kind! But I got to reading some things on Canine seizures & here's the 2 links if you want to read them. I hope the Vet gets Tiki's seizures stopped. It is terrible to see your pet going thru that. Keep us posted & Tiki's head rubbed! Nancy B.
#1. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS539US539&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Find+out+about+canine+epilepsy
#2. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS539US539&ion=1&espv=2&i!!e=UTF-8#q=About+canine+seizures

[DebraDownSouth]

There are some great groups for seizuring dog owners. I haven't had one, so not sure which are good but I am sure some here can help.

[Hana]

@Nancy-Berry Thank you so much for sharing about sweet Skippy - and the links! Every bit of knowledge helps for sure. Have a great weekend!

[DebraDownSouth]

Nancy, on REM sleep... it triggers migraines, so wouldn't be surprised if seizures. However, most seizures during sleep for humans is in light sleep. (I worked for 2 yrs with the University of TN Neuropsychology and Brain Research Center with Dr. Joel Lubar. My primary work was with the epilepsy program.)
https://www.epilepsy.org.au/about-epilepsy/understanding-epilepsy/nocturnal-seizures-during-sleep

[Hana]

@DebraDownSouth This is very intriguing !! I started finding articles about melatonin helping those with "night time" seizures....... Your mention of light sleep not deep REM sleep makes sense. If melatonin helps relieve some night time seizures..... maybe it's because the subject is sleeping more soundly?

Most articles I found said that pure melatonin (check dosing charts of course by weight) 30 mins- 1 hour before 'bed time' can help a lot with dogs with seizures - and for those who panic with storms etc.

http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/melatonin.htm
http://www.petremedycharts.com/Learning Center/Nutrition/Nutrition/home_cure_for_canine_seizures.html
http://www.vetblog.net/2013/01/dog-melatonin-uses-dose-rate.html
http://dog.rescueme.org/seizures

One article I found said to not give melatonin for dogs who have seizures. (at bottom)

http://ultimatehomelife.com/melatonin-for-dogs-dosages-safety-and-everything-you-should-know/

Does anyone on this forum have experience with giving their B's melatonin?

[Nancy Berry]

@DebraDownSouth Awesome place to work & what you were working with!

[Nancy Berry]

@Hana Sheesh! I never thought of giving a dog melatonin!!

[DebraDownSouth]

I know they have found lower dosages work better for people, but not find much solid research on dosing for dogs for each disorder so I'd start low. However, I am impressed with the amt of vets endorsing it and studies.

http://www.dogcancerblog.com/blog/more-melatonin-and-dog-cancer/
leading to this published on help with cancer survival: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10674014

Dr Dodman is a rock star: http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/3_5/features/Supplements-For-Anxious-Dogs_5095-1.html

https://cvm.ncsu.edu/new-research-study-focuses-on-mysterious-eye-disease-in-dogs/

https://www.vetinfo.com/melatonin-supplements-for-dogs.html

http://vcs.vetmed.wsu.edu/research/clinical-studies/melatonin