Puppy neutering!

[lvoss]

I also think the situation you described is far more likely excitement than marking. One of the rules of thumb with house training is to take them out frequently during hard play because they will forget. Also, this is the age, I have had boys wear themselves out so much that they pee in their sleep.

[Ana]

I usually keep a baby gate up for my bedroom, that way he can't get in there. Problem is, when he does his B-500, I usually don't have time to get him out again for his pee. He zips around like a mad dog and just stops for about five seconds to pee and off he goes again. But I think he does get over excited sometimes.
Well I think watching him like a hawk is in order. If it isn't marking, I am glad!

[Chealsie508]

Another reason I find boys so funny….it's all about the moment and then whoops! Been there, gone through that...

[tanza]

@Chealsie508:

Another reason I find boys so funny….it's all about the moment and then whoops! Been there, gone through that...

Exactly!!!!!

[Ana]

@Chealsie508:

Another reason I find boys so funny….it's all about the moment and then whoops! Been there, gone through that...

Haha, they are funny!! I don't think I have had this much entertainment from a dog… EVER
For some reason, even if he has his "oops" moments, I can't be mad for more than a few seconds! He just looks so clueless!!
I just hope he will keep his personality after I get him neutered!! I wouldn't change that for anything!

[DebraDownSouth]

@tanza:

I don't use pain meds because I feel that if they feel a bit of pain, they will on their own slow down their movements…. if for some reason they are having extreme paid or they have a lower pain level, I will use for the first day or two.

Been a bit busy, not going to post research but will say this. I totally disagree with this. I think it is inhumane whether done to animals or humans. Beyond that, every single study has shown that mammals, humans and dogs included, heal faster when not in pain.

[DebraDownSouth]

The truth is, most vets (do a poll, call 10 in your area) don't know SQUAT about new research (last 10 yrs even) on effects of spay neutering. Read for an hour, make some calls and, like nutrition, you'll be sad to find you know as much as the typical vet does.

Here are facts. Nothing bad happens to a male dog not neutered before 14 mos. But bone cancer might for younger neuters. Male dogs, particularly dalmatians, can have SEVERE issues from early neutering. Do I support rescues neutering young? I think it is unforgivable to release a rescue dog that isn't neutered. But I hate hate hate hate that people have neutering shoved down their throats without being given the information to make a decision.

We don't have an ultimate answer, but I resent vets and others pushing it and not educating and letting people decide. Read, learn, decide. But know there is no right/wrong. And also know that in Europe, where spay/neuter not as common, have no more pet overpopulation. Irresponsible ownership is more to blame for overpopulation than possessing reproductive organs.

Want a good balance article about the topic.. try these by Christie Keith:

http://www.doggedblog.com/doggedblog/2006/05/its_just_that_t.html

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2010/04/06/petscol040610.DTL

Longevity (there are a couple of newer ones but I need to get off here.. they support this.. ovaries in bitches equals LONGER not shorter lives)
http://www.gpmcf.org/respectovaries.html

http://www.cancer.umn.edu/research/programs/peccc/c3dec02.html

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

Wow, some of the statements that have been made are pretty bold. Granted, its pretty easy to do a search and read on the internet but we already know that it is very difficult get in to Vet school, hard to qualify for it, and difficult to complete it. With that being said, we really do not feel that it is right for anyone to make a general statement about what most vets know and what most vets do not know.

We certainly do not think anyone is shoving anything down anyone's throat. Is there someone out there forcing people to say yes to neutering? We do not think so. We still happen to believe that the owner can say yes or no. Although some owners make that choice by prior agreement with a breeder, they still have the choice before they get a dog from that breeder. Same goes for rescue. Now we will not make a statement for all rescues, but at least with Brat, people are made aware that the dog they receive will be spayed or neutered.

Yes, there those that do not want to neuter or spay their animals. We all know this. We also know that backyard breeders and puppy mills still seem supported by somebody. For them to exist someone has to buy the animals they produce which means there are some intact dogs where the owner may or may not have considered neutering or spaying a dog.

Doesn't it all come down to the owner taking responsibility for their own dog. The owner taking the initiative to educate themselves instead of relying on others to dig up and post information to make it easy for them.

We agree there are pros, and cons in regard to this subject. We also agree we are just members on this forum posting our opinions based on our experiences. We believe that unless you know better, that maybe you should put your trust in someone who has completed the education in veterinary medicine until they prove untrustworthy. To us chat forums are a lot like people who are arm chair quarterbacks that watch Monday Night Football, Of course we include ourselves in this view.

[lvoss]

@TwinDogsDifferentMothers:

We certainly do not think anyone is shoving anything down anyone's throat. Is there someone out there forcing people to say yes to neutering? We do not think so.

Really, where have you been the last 5-10 years. Absolutely, there are people, like practically every county in Southern California and many in other states that are doing exactly that. Mandating spay/neuter by 4 months old even though there is plenty to suggest that is not in the best interest of the animal. There are plenty of vets towing the line of the AR and willing to say that there is no reason not to spay/neuter everything with 4 legs by 4 months old. Just like there are plenty of vets saying yearly vaccines are the way to go when there is heaps of data saying just the opposite.

[Chealsie508]

In MA there are many vets that push to spay or neuter and also to vaccinate. I for one just had to have the discussion with my vet that this year I was NOT going to vaccinate for Lyme. Last year I did and since then I have researched and looked into the effectiveness of the vaccine and also really took a look at Oakleys risk factors and practices I can do to lessen his chances for contracting the disease. Luckily I found a vet who, while suggests it also knows that I am informed enough that my decision was not in haste. I can say with confidence I am familiar with vet practices in my area because I myself am contemplating going back to school to become a vet so I have familiarized myself with vets in my area…if you are just a lamen dog owner then it is easy to rest on the "knowledge" your vet teaches you and often enough they go with what they seem to be the "safe route" which is the precautionary route with everything...they vaccinate for very thing in hopes that nothing happens and neuter ASAP to prevent puppies as a result of a "not careful enough" owner. I always gt the vibe that vets get uncomfortable when an owner is educated an very well informed, it certainly isn't the norm around the east coast. Even my vet isn't used to having to discuss titering rather than just giving the shot. My old vet couldn't understand why I wanted to know if ALL of Oakleys growth plates were closed before I decided on neutering him...it was a hassle just to get information...

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

@lvoss:

Really, where have you been the last 5-10 years. Absolutely, there are people, like practically every county in Southern California and many in other states that are doing exactly that. Mandating spay/neuter by 4 months old even though there is plenty to suggest that is not in the best interest of the animal. There are plenty of vets towing the line of the AR and willing to say that there is no reason not to spay/neuter everything with 4 legs by 4 months old. Just like there are plenty of vets saying yearly vaccines are the way to go when there is heaps of data saying just the opposite.

Just because a bill was passed that mandated certain things in Southern California does not mean those mandates exist everywhere.

We do not dispute that you are familiar with the mandates where you live. We also know its a personal choice to decide where to live. Don't you and others have an opportunity to oppose a bill before it becomes a mandate if you did not agree with it? Aren't there processes for getting mandates and laws changed if you do not agree with them?

Is it better to euthanize animals/dogs to control population?

This link from the web sheds some light on whats going on with the existing mandate at least in LA County?

http://btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/2010/01/los-angeles-mandatory-spayneuter-year-2.html

We are not going to drag the vaccine issue into this thread because the discussion had to do with neutering.

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

This link below might be of some interest as well.

http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/pdfs/legislation/spayneuter_by_state.pdf

[lvoss]

I am sorry but as a shelter volunteer, I know that mandatory spay/neuter is not going to change the pet over population issue in shelters. Irresponsible owners will continue to have intact animals and not control their breeding. It is the responsible owners who don't need mandated spay/neuter to control their pets reproduction who are effected. California is not the only place with these laws, they have popped up all over the country and they do not work to lower shelter numbers. Santa Clara county was one of the first counties to institute this type of ordinance and their numbers increased. Mandatory spay/neuter is not the answer to pet over population. Responsible pet ownership is what is needed.

[tanza]

I do agree with lvoss about irresponsible owners and people that believe that pets are "throw aways" when they are tired or them or they are uncontrollable because owners do not take the time to train them…
I also believe that there are good Vets, Better Vets, and certainly ones that are NOT so good or that keep up with current findings in the fields. Now days there are many Vets that have branched out into specialties and general Vets refer to these specialists or consult with them... There are other Vets that "poo-poo" specialty Vets are old school and do not keep up on current studies/advances.

But then is this any different then human medicine? I think not... which again leads to the fact that finding a good Vet or Dr is up to the public. And to do so, the public needs to be educated.

We will always have people that believe that spay/neuter at 4 months is perfectly fine, others that will disagree... (I for one am against it)... There are many studies that support both ways.. Is one right or wrong? It becomes a matter of choice.

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

If you go to the original link that references LA you will see discussion why the numbers in shelters and euthanizing has gone up and down.

The second link posted is a pdf that lists what is required by the states across the country as far as neutering, license fees, taxs, and so on.

In a perfect world, maybe we would have responsible pet owners. Since we already know that not all pet owners are responsible, and you believe that a mandatory spay/neuter is not the answer, then what solution do you propose?

What do you think it actually going to work?

Seems this thread has moved away from the original question in regard to the appropriate age to neuter, and migrated to mandated spay/neutering concerns.

To answer the original question, in our opinion's we feel the best time to neuter a dog is after the growth plates are developed and are closed.

[DebraDownSouth]

@TwinDogsDifferentMothers:

Wow, some of the statements that have been made are pretty bold. Granted, its pretty easy to do a search and read on the internet but we already know that it is very difficult get in to Vet school, hard to qualify for it, and difficult to complete it. With that being said, we really do not feel that it is right for anyone to make a general statement about what most vets know and what most vets do not know.

We certainly do not think
We do not think so.
We still happen
Now we will not make a statement for all rescues,

We agree there are pros, and cons in regard to this subject. We also agree .

We? Are you more than one person? Or is this a royal "we."

And sorry, but I have several good friends who are vets. HONEST vets will tell you that the vast majority of vets take little to no classes on nutrition. HONEST vets will tell you they do well to keep up with the things they HAVE to know without researching topics like neutering.

And yeah, it is shoved down owners throats, pushed as being THE only healthy option, THE only responsible option. It is. But then, you know that if you bother to look.

[DebraDownSouth]

@TwinDogsDifferentMothers:

Just because a bill was passed that mandated certain things in Southern California does not mean those mandates exist everywhere.

Is it better to euthanize animals/dogs to control population?

WE (ROFLMAO) are sure you know she didn't say everywhere and in fact WE know it because you quoted her.

WE also know you know that it isn't spay/neuter or euthanize to control population. WE are pretty sure you simply like to see yourself type.

[DebraDownSouth]

I have superb vets, who don't pretend they know everything and have always been willing to listen to my views, read research I send, discuss and pick up the phone OFTEN to call specialists to find out things that crop up. They one time did not listen early in my starting to use them that Rottweilers have an issue with anesthesia, used the normal amt and had a very hard time bringing him out. They TOLD me what happened, apologized and the fact that they admitted it let me know what type of folks I was dealing with. One vet sat in the barn floor with me on my 40th birthday CRYING with me over my daughter's sick pony. The other vet slept on the hospital floor next to my dog one night. I love them. And I love that they don't claim to know nutrition, about breed specific disorders until they get a dog with an issue, or that they are specialists in all things. There are many very good vets, and medical doctors. The best ones know and admit their limitations and work to overcome lack of info when they need to. The worse ASSume they know everything and are always right and think owners are idiots and treat them as such. Do not try to turn this into vet-bashing issue. It is not.

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

@DebraDownSouth:

We? Are you more than one person? Or is this a royal "we.".

Yes, we are more than one person! LOL!

[TwinDogsDifferentMothers]

@DebraDownSouth:

WE (ROFLMAO) are sure you know she didn't say everywhere and in fact WE know it because you quoted her.

WE also know you know that it isn't spay/neuter or euthanize to control population. WE are pretty sure you simply like to see yourself type.

Debra, we are certainly glad you are having so much fun that you feel the need to degrade the discussion. That is OK with us (us meaning more than one LOL) since it reflects directly on you. Since you stated in another post that you are a freelance writer, we will not take up any more of the forum's time or bandwidth defining the word we. The response provided to your original inquiry should be more than sufficient.

We, are glad you have friends and lots of them. Glad to you know that you are familiar and friendly with many Veterinarians. We wonder why you feel the need to assert this? One possibility that has crossed our minds is that maybe you feel this makes you special or some kind of expert. Either way, if that works for your self esteem and you feel good about yourself because of it, more power to you.

"The best ones know and admit their limitations and work to overcome lack of info when they need to. The worse ASSume they know everything and are always right"

We really like this part of your statement. Yes we understand its not the complete sentence you wrote. The meaning of this shorter version ironically applies to quite a few professions. By the way, if you did not catch it in the other thread, thanks for that tip on the search engine. We are sure it will come in handy.

People have different reasons for choosing the Veterinarians they want to work with and have look over their pets. The same applies to medical doctors that take care of human involved. We certainly do not wish to work with any Veterinarian or human physician that has a god complex and would like us to believe he/she knows everything. What is important to us is that our Veterinarian works together with us to provide the best possible care. We expect the same out of our personal physicians. Communication is very important as well as honesty.

This thread was not started to discuss Veterinarians or the meaning of simple words. It was started to discuss the subject of neutering and appropriate time in a puppies life to perform that neuter. If you would like to get back to discussing the original subject, we will be happy to continue to participate.