5 Aug 09 Pet Alert - Congress considers pet expenses tax deduction

[renaultf1]

That would be fantastic if it passed this year - especially since Brando's broken leg has already run about $1,500, and when it is all said and done (provided no more surgery - that would be $2,500) it will be a little over $2,000.

[Kananga]

I'd imagine most breeders already use an existing deduction, depending on the dog (if their "pet" is used for breeding, etc).

[tanza]

@Kananga:

I'd imagine most breeders already use an existing deduction, depending on the dog (if their "pet" is used for breeding, etc).

Not hobby breeders, it is not a business to them, unless you are registered as a business there are no deductions you can take… and then at some point you have to show a profit, you can't just keep taking loss after loss, year after year. While I breed, I certainly don't make any profit....gggg... and my Basenjis are pets first....

[Vicki]

@nobarkus:

OK, lets see what the deductions are this year.
1 chewed up leather couch $1,200.
25 toys $250.00.
Vet visit for swallowing a dead squirrel $300.
House training expenses, i.e carpet cleaning $150.
Gas traveling to and from dog park $75.00

Thanks for this alert Pat!

Your post cracked me up!
I have a leather ottoman that is missing one corner!!
25 toys - and my Bs would rather play with old socks!

The newest Basenji likes to bring clods of red clay mud in the house - new Hoover steam cleaner!

[Kananga]

@tanza:

Not hobby breeders, it is not a business to them, unless you are registered as a business there are no deductions you can take… and then at some point you have to show a profit, you can't just keep taking loss after loss, year after year. While I breed, I certainly don't make any profit....gggg... and my Basenjis are pets first....

Yea, but then it'd be a Grey area with deducting expenses on your personal income (if this change took place).

Essentially you're operating as a non-profit. Do you and other hobby breeders setup an entity to operate out of? or is this all done as an individual?

And I'm simply curious about the concerns over liability and such. Whenever money is being exchange for goods (I know…. Basenjis are not "goods", but this is more from a legal prospective), you have issues of tax and general liability. Obviously not showing a profit eliminates the tax liability, but there is still general legal liability. There would be a tax liability, of course, if you were to take deductions on expenses that are usually offset by realized income. That's why I think the deduction for pet expenses could be tricky. I can't see the IRS liking it much.

[nobarkus]

@Vicki:

Your post cracked me up!
I have a leather ottoman that is missing one corner!!
25 toys - and my Bs would rather play with old socks!

The newest Basenji likes to bring clods of red clay mud in the house - new Hoover steam cleaner!

I had a RW that would bring in tanbark and chew it up on the white couch.

Hey that reminds me, chewed up socks and underwear replacement $20.00.

[tanza]

@Kananga:

Yea, but then it'd be a Grey area with deducting expenses on your personal income (if this change took place).

Essentially you're operating as a non-profit. Do you and other hobby breeders setup an entity to operate out of? or is this all done as an individual?

And I'm simply curious about the concerns over liability and such. Whenever money is being exchange for goods (I know…. Basenjis are not "goods", but this is more from a legal prospective), you have issues of tax and general liability. Obviously not showing a profit eliminates the tax liability, but there is still general legal liability. There would be a tax liability, of course, if you were to take deductions on expenses that are usually offset by realized income. That's why I think the deduction for pet expenses could be tricky. I can't see the IRS liking it much.

No, I operate as a hobby….. not a non-profit. Done as an individual (I only speak for myself)

[nobarkus]

@tanza:

No, I operate as a hobby….. not a non-profit. Done as an individual (I only speak for myself)

Hopefully you'll get to write off your hobby.

[tanza]

@nobarkus:

Hopefully you'll get to write off your hobby.

I would be happy as a pet owner to write off expenses especially for my elders care that has nothing to do with breeding, as then they are just my pets.

[nobarkus]

I been thinking for many years I'd love to be able to write off the expenses. Just the vet charges I'd be happy about.

[tanza]

@nobarkus:

I been thinking for many years I'd love to be able to write off the expenses. Just the vet charges I'd be happy about.

Exactly… elder care especially can be expensive... especially these days...

[nobarkus]

I think they're teaching the vets students how to gouge the poor pet owners now. Seems taking my first Basenji to the vet in the 70s and 80s wasn't any big deal as far as $.

[tanza]

@nobarkus:

I think they're teaching the vets students how to gouge the poor pet owners now. Seems taking my first Basenji to the vet in the 70s and 80s wasn't any big deal as far as $.

I don't think that… everyone needs to make a living... don't forget... no one is paying for equipment/instruments that are needed for them to run a practice... not like they can submit to Medicare... I am sure that some push the envelope... but most are just trying to cover their costs. They deserve to make a decent living too....

[lvoss]

There are good ones that try to keep up with technological advances to provide the highest quality care at the most reasonable price they can afford. There are others that will recommend the most costly treatments, foregoing, effective less expensive options to line their pockets.

[Kananga]

@tanza:

No, I operate as a hobby….. not a non-profit. Done as an individual (I only speak for myself)

Right, but my point was that you're essentially operating as a non-profit since you're not paying any taxes on income and you're not showing a profit (with a motivation not to). Losses from such should not flow through to personal income. It's similar how gambling to some is a hobby. The losses do not offset your income (no deduction). But at times you make money, but it's usually offset by a loss.

Pet expenses are different according to this proposed change. It's a decent idea, however, I have my doubts that something like this would go through. Especially with the running deficit. This would have a big impact on personal income tax revenue as there are a good number of pet owners in the US.

It would be nice but I wouldn't have high hopes for it.

[Kananga]

@nobarkus:

I think they're teaching the vets students how to gouge the poor pet owners now. Seems taking my first Basenji to the vet in the 70s and 80s wasn't any big deal as far as $.

I'd think it's more about the cost of education these days and the costs of malpractice insurance (yes, vets carry this too). I'd imagine there has been more litigation towards veterinarians these days compared to a few decades ago. You have to also factor in the changes over the years in regards to changes to legislation.

[GenJMar]

Would love for this to bill to pass. I don't have human children and alway feel I get the shaft when filing taxes.

Cody vet bills alone this year have cost me over $3,000.00 and Aurora is 13 y/o is on ongoing medication while not terribly expensive still its not free.

[nobarkus]

@tanza:

I don't think that… everyone needs to make a living... don't forget... no one is paying for equipment/instruments that are needed for them to run a practice... not like they can submit to Medicare... I am sure that some push the envelope... but most are just trying to cover their costs. They deserve to make a decent living too....

My cat needed his teeth cleaned. One vet priced it at $565 and had this long list of itemized tube, cotton swabs and things I couldn't even tell you what they were. Another vet 1 mile away doing the exact same thing and analysis of what needed to be done priced it at $135. I had the second vet do the cleaning and did an excellent job too. You don't think the first was gouging?

[lvoss]

Not necessarily. Were they truly comparable estimates as far as pre-op bloodwork IV during anesthia, etc? Also, you have no way of knowing what each practice's overhead is. One could own the building or have been there so long their rent is very low compared to the other.

My repro vet has very good rates for her services, this is in large part because her practice is located in an industrial area where the space is cheaper and she has been there quite a while. The drawback is that it is out of the way and takes a significant amount of time to get to. My regular vet is conveniently located in a shopping center with a pharmacist next door and a pet supply store next to that. They also have a working relationship with the specialists from UC Davis who will do in office consults with patients there. The cost is more for my regular vet, rent is high in Davis and there is the cost of keeping up with technology. I don't think that they are gouging me but the difference in operating costs means a difference in cost to their clients.

[lvoss]

The vets I have a problem with are the ones that recommend unneccessary procedures. I had a puppy person call me quite upset when their vet told them that their, at the time, 1 year old basenji would need major surgery to remove a small bump from his lip and that his jaw could be permanently damaged from the surgery. The first question I asked is what did the fine needle aspiration of the lump show that required this radical approach. Their response, "Huh? What is a fine needle aspiration?" The vet hadn't even bothered to look at what type of cells were in the lump. They saw a lump and the only option they gave the owner was surgery without even doing any diagnostic work to determine what the lump might be. And the estimate on the surgery was well over $1000. The vet even went so far as to make the owner feel bad when she walked out of the office saying she would have to really think about this before agreeing, telling her that she was jeopardizing her dog's life and it if she waited too long it would be riddled with tumors and dead.

At my urging, they sought a second opinion and the fine needle aspiration showed a mild infection probably caused by a nip from the 12 week old puppy in the household at the time. Some antibiotics and time and the bump went away on its own and has never recurred. And the total cost was around $100-$150.