Required Testing Before Breeding

Breeder Talk
Log in to reply
  • QuercusQ

    @tanza:

    Eyes are important. I always had my puppies done between 8 and 10 wks to get a base line and if there were any early problems like Coloboma. Then I would CERF them at least at age two, if no problems then at least every two years. If breeding certainly that year for sure. Thyroid you can do at least by the time they are a year…

    And it is really critical CRITICAL to go to a veterinary opthamlogist who is experienced and practiced at looking a Basenji eyes. So many are quick to misinterpret what seems to be common place in Basenjis. You can get a doc saying 'this dog is blind' …then when you take the same dog to a more experienced vet, you get 'this dog has perfect eyes'.

    Hopefully this is something that the BCOA Health committee will be discussing soon, and have some suggestions to alleviate paying for multiple tests with wildly different diagnosis.

    Andrea Walters

    Quercus Basenjis

    NW Ohio

    0
  • WBLW

    Thank you Andrea and Pat!!! By the time he is old enough to be breed I will be living back in the states so those sort of things will be easier for me to find, lol, it can be difficult here at times with the language difference.

    As for the eyes I'm guessing that they are also made up differently than most dogs??

    0
  • QuercusQ

    @WBL:

    Thank you Andrea and Pat!!! By the time he is old enough to be breed I will be living back in the states so those sort of things will be easier for me to find, lol, it can be difficult here at times with the language difference.

    As for the eyes I'm guessing that they are also made up differently than most dogs??

    Yes, that is the theory. No one is really too sure right now…but it seems that things that may scream "problem" in "normal" dogs, may not mean the same thing in Basenji eyes.....why be normal? ;)

    Andrea Walters

    Quercus Basenjis

    NW Ohio

    0
  • tanzaT

    And with any luck maybe we will have a DNA test for PRA

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

    0
  • WBLW

    LOL, I have learned that many things are different in basenjis than other dogs. I didn't know that males tend to have one testicle that will "hide" until they are 6-7 months. This had me worried at first with Tiggy, but just over the past few days it has started to "present" itself. My vet here didn't know that, I found out by his sire's owner and then my vet in the states is familiar with Basenji's and she said the same thing.

    So the list goes on, testicles are positioned different and they can hide, eyes are different, vocal cords, anything else, lol?

    0
  • tanzaT

    @WBL:

    LOL, I have learned that many things are different in basenjis than other dogs. I didn't know that males tend to have one testicle that will "hide" until they are 6-7 months. This had me worried at first with Tiggy, but just over the past few days it has started to "present" itself. My vet here didn't know that, I found out by his sire's owner and then my vet in the states is familiar with Basenji's and she said the same thing.

    So the list goes on, testicles are positioned different and they can hide, eyes are different, vocal cords, anything else, lol?

    Yes in B's the testicles are carried one in front of the other… and they can "still" suck one up... especially if frighten by something or like at a show if the "judges" hands are cold...:eek:

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

    0
  • WBLW

    @tanza:

    Yes in B's the testicles are carried one in front of the other… and they can "still" suck one up... especially if frighten by something or like at a show if the "judges" hands are cold...:eek:

    LMAO, now that is kinda funny. Luckly Tiggy has gotten used to being handled, lol, down there because everyone suggested massaging to help it along

    0
  • khanisK

    Just as an FYI, if you are having other things done, ou can always have hips done BEFORE they are two years old… the only difference is that you cannot get an OFA certification for it.. but you do get a Pre-Lim Report and it will state whether the dog is Excellent, Good, Fair, or a non-passing grade.

    Many people (this includes many long-time breeders) breed and have no issues telling puppy people that the dog is too young for hips on their testing blurb. Sure, I'd say 6 months is too young, but if hte dog you are using is above 8 months old, then is SHOULD be at least Pre-Limmed on hips. There are NO excuses not to do it.

    I think that Pre-Lims are now posted on OFA... I did some from 2001-2005 and those weren't posted online (can't recall the reasoning then).

    Kathy Britton

    Khani's Basenjis

    Portland, Oregon

    ….."You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me!"

    0
  • QuercusQ

    Kathy, do you traditionally do a formal OFA later on then, or do you just use the pre-lim as your test?

    Andrea Walters

    Quercus Basenjis

    NW Ohio

    0
  • tanzaT

    While that is correct that OFA is available for prelim and anyone using a young dog that is not old enough for hips other then prelim should certainly at least have that done… my question would be, is it really necessary to use a dog before he is 2?

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

    0
  • QuercusQ

    @tanza:

    While that is correct that OFA is available for prelim and anyone using a young dog that is not old enough for hips other then prelim should certainly at least have that done… my question would be, is it really necessary to use a dog before he is 2?

    I don't think it is really necessary …but sometimes people have their reasons...and it is nice that there is an option rather than just waiting to see.

    Andrea Walters

    Quercus Basenjis

    NW Ohio

    0
  • lvossL

    The other option for hips before the age of 2 years is PennHip which does certifications at a younger age than OFA.

    0

Suggested Topics

  • taylor.rene.gT

    When to consider breeding?

    Breeder Talk
    20
    0 Votes
    20 Posts
    8k Views
    DebraDownSouthD
    @bigv said in When to consider breeding?: So Taylor.rene . A little bit about my findings over the last 30 years is that every person who breeds dogs calls them self a responsible breeder? "" Yes, and fortunately for about 20 year now, anyone who really wants to verify if the breeder is actually believable can do so. Some breeders have no problem with incest for the sake of a ribbon as (dogs aren't people )..It is all about titles not the betterment of the breed. Being involved with race horses..<< Gosh, where to begin. " Incest" is a morality terminology, applied as everything from just not parent/child and aunt or uncles/nieces and nephews....all the way to 2nd or even 3rd cousins. It has little to do with genetics, hence adopted children count, and everything to do with moral views. That said, the human race is far from universally avoiding what would be called close line breeding or even incest. Isolated communities ...either physically by geographic terrain or socially by groups such Ashkenazi Jews and Romani, have limited gene pools. Ashkenazi Jews, btw, joke we are all no further than 5th cousins, but it is nearly true. Dogs and animals have no such manmade morals. A common propensity for many mammals to not to mate with closely related animals has nothing to do with incest. In limited populations they will mate, and the problems that arise if it occurs too often are due to decreased gene, increased expression of harmful genes etc. In controlled breeding, line breeding, even close, can be used to find if there are harmful recessives, or bring out desired recessives. If you think it isn't done with livestock, including horses, you're mistaken. With knowledgeable breeders who keep up on genetics, it absolutely is for the betterment of the breed, not a ribbon... Yes I am not a fan of line breeding but it seems that every zoo in the world has a similar view as they are always swapping animals to improve the genes . ...<<<<< Again, absolutely nothing to do with incest. Zoo animals, even those of nonendangered species, have a serious issue with limited gene pools. The level of that limitation cannot be compared to most pet breeds. We aren't talking many thousands of individuals, or millions, but sometimes 100 or less. Stud books are kept, for example, on all the polar bears in zoos and the effort to keep the diversification as high as possible is serious. (I'll leave out my views on them being in zoos.) So sure, if dog breeders were faced with THAT level of limited gene pool, line breeding would probably be avoided as much as possible. However, that all ignores the fact that dogs in any breed are mostly related.. If you go back 10 or more generations, you find the same dogs heavily in most lines. Sometimes 2 dogs that aren't related 3 generations back may share more actual genes than a closely related dog who has a lot of breeding out of the line on one side. That's where knowledgeable breeders come in. Having studied dingos for the past 15 years I can say without dought a bitch won't mate with relative... They are similar to basenjis in many ways. ...<< That's nice that you've studied them. But researchers are making new discoveries based on actual observations and finding a lot of what they thought isn't true. With massive interbreeding with domestic dogs, the pure dingos are disappearing. I envy those of you able to see them. However researchers suspect they have ...>>During this a hitherto unknown form of the “pure” dingo was discovered (based on DNA and skull features): a white dog with orange spots on the fur. This variant was considered as a single mutation or the result of interbreeding with an isolated dingo population.<< So they don't rule it out. (I downloaded to read, over 100 pages but you might love it. I'll save for later! https://web.archive.org/details/http://www.invasiveanimals.com/downloads/Final-proceedings-with-cover.pdf ) And my boy does have a title that no other basenji has . He is the first and only basenji to be approved by the Victorian State Goverment to be authorised to hunt deer on private and public land within its borders. But to some this would make him unsuitable to breed with you figure?<<< First, while you have done an impressive job with you dogs, I am pretty sure that is a privilege given, not a "title," and I am 100% certain his being able to would have nothing to do with whether anyone deemed him not worthy of breeding to. With the right health checks, good conformation, etc, I would think a good plus...especially if the bitch owner wanted to possibly enhance hunting ability. It simply isn't enough.
  • sabaS

    Health Testing… Why Not ???

    Breeder Talk
    30
    0 Votes
    30 Posts
    11k Views
    I
    @sinbaje: The one that comes to mind - to the best of my knowledge - should not have had anything to do with the reliability of the results (it was done in 2009 - 2 years after the start of public testing in 2007 when most kinks should have long been worked out). Of course being 2 years after public testing began, I can not think of any legitimate reason for the need for research nor the need to keep it private, but then I am oftentimes guilty of giving too much information vs not enough. ;) I'll see if I can find the reference I am thinking of and if so, will ask - assuming I did not already. Will have to look. Hi Linda - Not sure exactly what kind of situation you're talking about - so will give a general summary. Fanconi research is continuing and we are still using research samples, and gather new samples. Work is primarily to develop a direct test (the current test is a linkage marker test for multiple markers) but also to keep an eye on performance and accuracy of the current test. So getting new research samples in 2009, 2010, and 2011 is expected and needed. Research uses validated dogs that are anomalous and verified affected dogs, usually using new testing technologies. Goal is to develop a direct test and, in the interim, if needed, to improve the existing test. OFA is not funding the research and is not doing the research testing, so they can't tell you anything. OFA handles payment, reporting, and publication of results for the production test. Samples ordered for research are handled separately from OFA samples and are not paid for. They are often blood samples, in some cases fresh blood only, but not always. If you pay OFA to have your dog tested and sign a release form, his results will go into OFA's open database. If a research sample is tested, it will not. For research samples, most I know of were either for known affecteds, to be used to refine the test, or retests to verify a test was of the right dog, or tests of a cluster of relatives to verify parentage where a parent is deceased and DNA is not on file. I can't offhand think of cases where the production test would be done for research for anything except retesting a dog with an anomalous result. In that case, if the result was different, it would be corrected; if not, nothing would happen on the OFA side. For Fanconi, in general, at this point, if Gary is testing a sample or samples for research, he is either using testing methodologies that are not in production (mostly working on getting a direct test) such as whole genome mapping or improved SNP chips, or he is verifying parentage, or he is retesting an anomalous sample to make sure the right dog was tested. A fair bit of that is in the Health Committee report which is on the front page of www.basenji.org, click on annual meeting powerpoint and scroll down to the HC part. I don't know if this answers your questions or not because I don't really have enough info to figure out the specific situation. I can pretty much tell you, if it's a research sample, OFA probably knows absolutely nothing about it. They are not part of the research process right now for Fanconi. They are in the pay/test/report process for the validated Fanconi test already in production. FYI, the Health Committee email list is open to any BCOA member and you can ask questions there at any time. Lisa
  • A

    Breeding a basenji?

    Breeder Talk
    19
    0 Votes
    19 Posts
    7k Views
    tanzaT
    @Kipawa: I think most people will agree that neutering a dog does not spoil their spirit or temperament. More often, spaying or neutering results in a more calm, balanced animal. I agree, but we have lots of people on the Forum from over the "pond" and they have most different ideas about spay/neuter, different culture, different ideas…. and that is their right.... sometimes we all will need to agree to disagree..
  • T

    Planned Breeding at Illusion

    Breeder Talk
    13
    0 Votes
    13 Posts
    6k Views
    NemoN
    Seems like the DNA sample would be easier to get too. :rolleyes: I guess the advantage of the sperm count is that you at least know if the sire is fertile or not. Good luck, can't wait to see pictures of the pups to be.
  • BuanaB

    New testing

    Breeder Talk
    15
    0 Votes
    15 Posts
    4k Views
    BuanaB
    @Terry: Buana - have you considered collecting Chafuko and using the chilled semen AI? That way neither dog would have to undergo the stress of travel. Terry We never considered that, I will get information about that (for this time it's too late but for a next time) I'ts always good to know.
  • S

    Interested in breeding

    Breeder Talk
    5
    0 Votes
    5 Posts
    5k Views
    lvossL
    I got my first basenji about 8 1/2 years ago. I wanted a dog that I could try lure coursing and maybe agility with. I was not interested in showing but agreed to try a a match or two before making a final decision and getting him neutered. At first Nicky didn't really show much interest in lure coursing and I couldn't find any agility classes near me so I entered Nicky in a match. We had fun and I decided I would give showing a try. When Nicky turned about 20 months old he finally decided the lure looked like a whole lot of fun so we split our time between showing him and coursing him. Nicky finished his AKC and ASFA Field Championships fairly quickly and when he was about 2 1/2 years old we decided we wanted to get him a companion. When his breeder was a planning a litter with black and whites expected I told her that I wanted on the waiting list. Nicky was 3 years old when Rally joined the pack. Rally has always been an enthusiastic courser and had that elusive "show attitude" that Nicky lacked she became my first Champion. During this time I also became active in my local breed club and in rescue. I learned a lot about the history of the breed and about how many people get basenjis because they are attracted to its small size and "barklessness" without understanding about its intelligence, sense of humor, and ability to scream bloody murder when upset. It was a big decision to decide to breed Rally. Being a responsible breeder means being responsible for the pups you bring into this world for the rest of their lives and means breeding with the best interest of the breed at heart. I decided to co-breed a litter out of Rally with her breeder because I felt that Rally had a lot to offer the breed as a whole. She has a healthy pedigree that is not over-represented in the gene pool, she has a fabulous temperament that has charmed many a person, and she is a lovely example of a black and white basenji. It took a year of planning and some bumps in the road but in the end we had a nice litter of 4 pups. I am very proud of all my puppy owners for keeping their puppies active and participating in lure coursing with their dogs. We had really hoped for a black girl in Rally's first litter but she gave us a black boy and only red girls. So we started researching again and after nearly 2 years of planning we bred her to an Avongara. Please take time to read about the emergency c-section that we had to have when one of the pups was mispositioned. It was heartbreaking to lose one of the pups and so scary to think that we could have lost Rally. Breeding is a labor of love. There are so many things that can go wrong and so much screening to make sure the pups end up in homes that will cherish them forever and understand what it is to own a basenji. Basenjis are not for everyone and as much as I love the breed, I have seen many end up in homes that should never have had a basenji and some were homes that would be great for the right breed just not a basenji.