New application for the Native Stock Program

[tanza]

There has been three new application for the Native Stock program with BCOA and AKC

Here is the link and on a personal note I think these three bitches are just lovely and a credit to our stud books….

http://www.basenji.org/NativeStock/Applicants/List2010.htm

[AJs Human]

I'm not surprised people are looking for native stock to import. Most of the breeders have spay/neuter requirements before they will relinquish papers. It kind of limits the available breeding and showing stock here.

[lvoss]

I don't think that you understand the point of the Native Stock. Most of the native stock that has been imported and put before the membership was done so by basenji breeders. The Native Stock Project is to help widen the basenji genepool not because people can not acquire well bred basenjis in the United States to show and breed.

[tanza]

@AJs:

I'm not surprised people are looking for native stock to import. Most of the breeders have spay/neuter requirements before they will relinquish papers. It kind of limits the available breeding and showing stock here.

HUH??? Native stock is to expand the gene pool…. has nothing to do with how responsible breeders have requirements on placing in-tact pups and on breeding practices. The people that are importing native stock are responsible breeders and I dare say, getting one of them is even harder then a registered pup.

Just go and read what a responsible breeder is on the BCOA site that has a section on how to find a responsible breeder... and the breeders that are bring back native stock have and are putting a great amount of time, health testing, socialization into those dogs before presenting them to the BCOA for acceptance into the stud books

[Nemo]

Cool, and I get to vote this time! I like the heads on Paya and Lema, they remind me of the basenjis from way back when.

[AJs Human]

I just get confused sometimes because the existing responsible breeders seem to narrow the field with the spay and neuter clause in the contract. I can completely understand the idea of trying to avoid BYB's and puppy mills. However, if folks want to start their own kennel, be responsible about it and show, their hands are tied by the contract with the original breeder and by AKC's requirement that altered animals may not be shown.

My point is, if this is in all the contracts, how do you expect anyone else to be able to enter the field if they have to answer to the original breeder every time they have a litter? At what point does the new kennel become independent and not have to ask the original parents' breeders to sign off on litters?

Sometimes it appears political and hypocritical to say, "I can breed puppies and show them, but if you buy one of mine because they are so beautiful and well-tempered, you are not allowed to carry on the line by breeding and I will further not allow you to show because you have to get my pup spayed or neutered." How, then, can anyone new get into the field without bringing in native stock? That is my question.

[mauigirl]

I'm sure one of the breeders will jump in. I think mentorship is key in the process of a new person getting involved. All of the breeders I've had the pleasure of meeting in person have told me all about the person that mentored them in the beginning and throughout their involvement in the breed.
I think most breeders are really happy when they can place a show dog. But they do so with caution. And I think the specifics of the decision making comes down to who owns or co-owns the dog in question. I think puppies cannot be registered unless all the co-owners sign off on it. I don't think the dynamic of the relationship is "you can't do this or that because I bred that dog" but it's more like "I support your involvement in the breed/I am available as a resource, please consult me, I would be happy to give my opinion". And likewise the one being mentored hopefully feels very thankful to have that person's guidance.

The intention of spay/neuter contracts and limited registration is to avoid the "I want to breed my dog because she's my dog and she's so cute and she has a great temperament, and I just want one of her puppies" I mean, how often do you hear that? I think it's entirely possible that some pet homes with responsibly bred dogs are still the same people that would want to breed the dog just because. For reasons the original breeder clearly wouldn't approve of. So it's a good pet home, but….. Letting the dog go intact is another thing entirely...

[AJs Human]

I can understand mentoring as well. However, I saw first-hand the result of co-ownership and interpersonal conflicts getting in the way of advancement of the breed. It took threats of a lawsuit to get a co-owner to sign off on the dogs. (I was witness to this mess, not directly involved.)

My own mentor would, of course, be my grandmother since she was a breeder and shower for 50 years. However, I would have to start with another breeder's dog because my grandmother ended her line about ten years ago. So again, I return to the question: how does one get started in the endeavor without having every subsequent litter encumbered by co-ownership and at what point does the person become independent?

[lvoss]

I don't know where you get the idea that you would be required to co-breed with the breeder forever and ever. There are many different arrangements that may be made depending on the breeder. They may want to co-breed all the litters from the bitch, or they may ask for one litter, or they may simply ask for the right to approve any breeding. It is their reputation on the line if the person goes out breeds their puppy irresponsibly so of course they are going to be protective of that and require certain strings. If you kept puppies out of any litter(s) they would not necessarily be co-owned and you could start going in your own direction though hopefully still maintaining a good relationship with the breeder.

[AJs Human]

Thus far this year, any pup I would deem desirable to me (no offense meant to anyone) has the spay/neuter required clause in the contract. What that tells me is if there is a desirable pup that I might want to show (which I believe would increase the standing of the breeder) the AKC will not consider it because the breeder required that I alter the animal, thus disqualifying it and making it obviously impossible to begin a new line from a desirable animal.

My own standards for show are extremely high due to the fact I was raised around my gramma's dogs and remember Basenji back then. My goal would be to preserve the heritage of the breed rather than tweak it here and there for a "tighter tail" or "higher neck arch" or whatever.

[renaultf1]

@AJs:

Thus far this year, any pup I would deem desirable to me (no offense meant to anyone) has the spay/neuter required clause in the contract. What that tells me is if there is a desirable pup that I might want to show (which I believe would increase the standing of the breeder) the AKC will not consider it because the breeder required that I alter the animal, thus disqualifying it and making it obviously impossible to begin a new line from a desirable animal.

My own standards for show are extremely high due to the fact I was raised around my gramma's dogs and remember Basenji back then. My goal would be to preserve the heritage of the breed rather than tweak it here and there for a "tighter tail" or "higher neck arch" or whatever.

I'm sort of confused, and please don't be offended.

If the breeder is requiring a spay/neuter contract on the pup you are looking at, the breeder does not deem that pup one to continue on with - either it offers nothing further to the breed or maybe at that point doesn't meet the standard to the point that it may be able to be successfully shown, or maybe even a health thing.

It is good that your standards are high, but a responsible breeder's standards are usually higher than the average person buying a pup. I can say that the 2 things you mentioned (tight tail, neck arch) have never even been in the topic of discussion when I've discussed the structure of a dog with knowledgeable/responsible breeders. Top line (standing & on the move), tail set, shoulder angle - well that is a different story.

I find that the people who I consider really good breeders are quite critical of their dogs overall. It has been drummed into me before I got my pup, to not be so attached to Liyah that I can't see her faults. It doesn't hurt my feelings or change the way I feel about my pup, when people are critical of her - there is no perfect dog. One thing that was mentioned to me the other day was that inexperienced people usually comment mainly on the things they can see - colour, wrinkles, loose tail. A responsible breeder is looking at a lot more than that. I haven't even mentioned health testing and pedigree research.

The mentoring (and co-ownership) is the key thing as others have said. When I decided that I wanted to show, I would not have ended up with the pup I got had I not already been started to be mentored by my pup's breeder and had not agreed to a co-ownership. They picked the pup (although I lobbied heavily for her). I jokingly say that I only wanted her because she was related to my Ruby, but there was much more to the whole thing than that and it definitely wasn't, "I want that one", "ok, she's yours". I will say, my situation is a bit different because I'm good friends with Liyah's breeders and they know my integrity first-hand.

To me, the co-ownership has been a blessing. I've been out straight with my father's care (and Brando's broken leg during the summer), and could not put as much effort in on Aaliyah with showing. Thankfully, her breeder helped out showing her. If I had been on my own, I'm sure I would have been completely stressed out about Aaliyah on top of everything going on at home. And quite frankly, that would have been way too much.

I read that you say your grandmother would be your mentor. If her line ended 10 years ago, perhaps there are people that are still breeding (different lines) that were friendly with your grandmother (since you said she bred basenjis for 50 years, someone still in the breed must know her) - maybe they would be willing to help you find a pup to start with.

[renaultf1]

I almost forgot…

I love all 3 of these imports - Ziki is such a little sweetie, and her spots are so cute!

I haven't seen any of the Lukuru's in person, but they are beautiful from the photos I've seen. Dr. Jo has brought some nice basenjis back, that is for sure.

[Basenjimamma]

I am glad to see more dogs being added to the foundation stock.
I like their looks, looking back in time at the pictures, most often black and white pictures mind you, these ladies look very much the correct type..they look real..if that makes any sense at all. I guess what I expect them to look like should I go to Africa and look for one..very nice addition.

[tanza]

@AJs:

Thus far this year, any pup I would deem desirable to me (no offense meant to anyone) has the spay/neuter required clause in the contract. What that tells me is if there is a desirable pup that I might want to show (which I believe would increase the standing of the breeder) the AKC will not consider it because the breeder required that I alter the animal, thus disqualifying it and making it obviously impossible to begin a new line from a desirable animal.

My own standards for show are extremely high due to the fact I was raised around my gramma's dogs and remember Basenji back then. My goal would be to preserve the heritage of the breed rather than tweak it here and there for a "tighter tail" or "higher neck arch" or whatever.

Did you talk to the breeder about wanting to maybe show and maybe bred at some point? Did you discuss if that was possible? Most breeders have two contracts, one for show, one for pet. And breeders are always looking to mentor new people in the breed, if we didn't, it would be pretty obvious that over time, the breed would cease to exist. However you need to open and upfront with your plans or ideas.

Certainly you are right that some co-ownerships do not work, but then that is the reason that you get to know your breeder, spend time with them, talk to others that have their dogs. Most breeders will want to stay on while the pup is being shown and maybe through that first litter. There is always or should be in the contract when a co-ownership would end. And if you co-bred a litter, kept one of the pups, you could be the sole owner, those pups do not have to be co-owned.

And I am not sure that I understand your goal of preserving hertiage? That is every breeders idea? But in preserving hertiage comes the responibility of improving health, temperament, and conformation. Certainly the first Basenjis that came to England and the US did NOT have what would be considered acceptable temperaments at all and this temperament was not something to be preserved (at least Not IMO)… so breeders worked very hard to improve the temperaments among other things.

[Rita Jean]

Belinda I must go along with you on all of this. Pat when you tell a breeder what you may or would like to do in the future and they say to you, your dog is not good enough because I do not like were your dog came from. I also know in having said what I just did this post is going to go over the sea so I said this what I find in life.

Rita Jean

[Nemo]

@Rita:

Belinda I must go along with you on all of this. Pat when you tell a breeder what you may or would like to do in the future and they say to you, your dog is not good enough because I do not like were your dog came from. I also know in having said what I just did this post is going to go over the sea so I said this what I find in life.

Rita Jean

I'm not sure I understand your statement. The dog would be coming from the breeder wouldn't it? They have the right to determine whether one of their dogs goes on a spay/neuter contract, etc. They bred the dog, it doesn't belong to anyone else until ownership is transferred.

[lvoss]

Responsible breeders sell pets on spay/neuter contracts to do their part to help with the homeless pet problem we have in this country. Everyone on this forum should be well aware of just how many basenjis are "in need" every year. BRAT placed around 300 homeless basenjis this year, Karen Jones is housing close to 100 homeless basenjis just in a small part of this country.

Where do these homeless basenjis come from? Some come from puppy mills that churn out puppies for sale but a large part come from casual breeders that are referred to as BYBs. There is a wide spectrum that fall in this category ranging from the mom who bred Bibi so the kids could witness the miracle of birth to the guy who breeds Fifi to earn money for his yearly fishing trip to the gal who bred Mimi because all her friends wanted one just like her, and the list goes on and on. Some do health testing, some do none, most feel like the screen their homes because they ask a few questions but for them the moment money changes hands so does their responsibility.

So when you go to a responsible breeder's website it will say "Pet puppies sold on limited registration with a spay/neuter contract." That statement does not mean that ALL puppies are sold on spay/neuter contracts but expect that there is going a pretty thorough interview process, required visits, and alot involvment. This is not a bad thing but it does mean you may have to do some looking around to find someone you can get along with. Picking a breeder for pet or show is in many ways like picking your new extended family and will require time and effort to find the right fit.

When it comes to stud service, it is much the same, it is the breeder's reputation on the line. They need to be comfortable with the pedigree, with the health testing, with the experience of the person breeding or the experience of their mentor. Those puppies are going to representing their dog's ability to produce so they are going to want to stack the deck in favor of stellar puppies and they are going to want to know the owner's breeding, placement, rearing philosophies are in line with their own so that they can feel comfortable the puppies will be done right by.

[renaultf1]

@Rita:

Belinda I must go along with you on all of this. Pat when you tell a breeder what you may or would like to do in the future and they say to you, your dog is not good enough because I do not like were your dog came from. I also know in having said what I just did this post is going to go over the sea so I said this what I find in life.

Rita Jean

I have to disagree. When contacting the breeder of a potential stud, the owner of that stud has every right to say, sorry, not a breeding I want to be involved with. Also, if the owner of the stud is honest and direct, at least you know the reason why they didn't agree to it. It might not be the answer you want to hear, but at least you know the reason.

[tanza]

@Rita:

Belinda I must go along with you on all of this. Pat when you tell a breeder what you may or would like to do in the future and they say to you, your dog is not good enough because I do not like were your dog came from. I also know in having said what I just did this post is going to go over the sea so I said this what I find in life.

Rita Jean

I totally disagree with you on this. It is a breeders responsibility when someone contacts them about maybe breeding to their boys that they evaluate the bitch. And pedigree does have a part in it, along with the bitches conformation. Is she of correct conformation? Does she have a good bite (as bad bites are genetic for the most part, every once in a while you might find one that the head/mouth shape was effected in utero) What is the temperament like. What is the rest of the health like? Hips, Eyes, etc. Remember 1/2 of those pups genes are going to come from the bitch, so breeder want the best bred to their dogs they can get. So, yes they may tell you they are not interested in your bitch because of where it came from…

I know people in the breed that started out with a Basenji from a BYB... then met responsible breeders and learn from them about responsible breeding, placements, conformation, etc. They have from there become responsible breeders themselves. But you need to have an open mind and be ready to hear what you might not like or what to hear as already stated.

And I can tell you that is exactly what I do. If people ask for an honest opinion of their Basenji, I will give it. Again, it is my opinion but I have been in the breed for a long time and learn much from others in the breed and from my mentors.

[lvoss]

Kennel Blindness can be a real problem especially for novices just starting. These dogs are our pets and we love them greatly which can make it difficult for us to honestly evaluate them. It is only natural to want to down play their faults and exaggerate their virtues. It can also be very difficult to hear an honest opinion of your dog.

I have known Pat pretty much since I got into the breed. She is one of the people who encouraged me to give showing a try and she put Nicky's majors on him. She has also always been nothing but honest with me about my dogs, good and bad. She may have a soft spot for my boy but it has never stopped her from sharing her opinion of what his faults are but that is also why she shows him so well. She knows exactly how to show the best of him.

We may not always see eye to eye but we each respect each other and take into account the other's opinion. I am happy to have someone who is willing to speak honestly with me about my dogs, sometimes it takes fresh eyes to see something you may have missed, again both good and bad. We have co-bred one litter together and co-own a pup from that litter but even when she has not had a stake in my litters she has always been willing to come and evaluate pups and has always been willing to talk through pros and cons of different dogs I may be considering. Again, I other people will see the same dog differently and sometimes it can really help to those different opinions.

I am lucky, I have several people in the breed who are willing to have honest discussions with me about dogs but I am truly open to their opinions and critiques.