Skip to content
Basenji Forums
  1. Home
  2. Breeder Talk
  3. Breeding Using Younger Dogs

Breeding Using Younger Dogs

Breeder Talk
  • tanzaT

    And while it is great that they are a member of BCOA, this doesn't give everyone a "green" light that they are a good or responsible breeder.

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

    0
  • S

    Thanks Pat.

    Sharron Hurlbut

    BRAT, basenji rescue

    Evergreen basenji club

    Seattle Purebred Dog Rescue

    0
  • myranM

    Visited the Klassics kennel page and she is using a dog well under a year this season and she certainly isn´t an unknown breeder.Not to critize but isn´t that a bit too young?

    0
  • S

    What health testing have they done?
    It sure does sound too young to me.
    I have to share what I heard years ago ring side. Yes at a AKC basenji show.
    Don't know who said it, but it shocked me even then.
    They said, yes, show and breed them young, before any of the "troubles" show up.
    I will leave that to you all to figure out what they meant.

    Sharron Hurlbut

    BRAT, basenji rescue

    Evergreen basenji club

    Seattle Purebred Dog Rescue

    0
  • tanzaT

    @myran:

    Visited the Klassics kennel page and she is using a dog well under a year this season and she certainly isn´t an unknown breeder.Not to critize but isn´t that a bit too young?

    It is young, but as I said, if it were me and I was looking to use a very young male (not that I am planning on doing that) but here are the things I would consider….

    1. Prelim hips and elbows
    2. Eye Exam
    3. Fanconi - (this particular dog is from two Clear parents, so it is not quite as important, however for me, I think it should be done)
    4. Thyroid
    5. Age of the parents....
    In this case the sire of this particular dog was born in 1997 and is still living, Dam of this particular dog was born in 2000, obviously living
    Grandsire of the dog still living born in 1995, Grand dam of this dog born 1992 and died in 2006 at at 14, Grandsire on the bottom side born in 1898, died at 14, and Grand dam born 1997 and still living.
    So, that give a very good long life for this particular dog's pedigree which would for me play into using a dog of this age

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

    0
  • NemoN

    @tanza:

    It is young, but as I said, if it were me and I was looking to use a very young male (not that I am planning on doing that) but here are the things I would consider….

    1. Prelim hips and elbows
    2. Eye Exam
    3. Fanconi - (this particular dog is from two Clear parents, so it is not quite as important, however for me, I think it should be done)
    4. Thyroid
    5. Age of the parents....
    In this case the sire of this particular dog was born in 1997 and is still living, Dam of this particular dog was born in 2000, obviously living
    Grandsire of the dog still living born in 1995, Grand dam of this dog born 1992 and died in 2006 at at 14, Grandsire on the bottom side born in 1898, died at 14, and Grand dam born 1997 and still living.
    So, that give a very good long life for this particular dog's pedigree which would for me play into using a dog of this age

    Thanks, this helps me understand more specifically what to look for in this situation. (particularly #5, I was already looking at 1-4 thanks to previous forum comments).

    Connect with the Basenji Club of America on Facebook

    http://www.facebook.com/basenji.org

    0
  • lvossL

    I know many breeders who are well known in the breed and who have been breeding for a long time, who will breed very young dogs. I have also seen this practice produce dogs that have health issues. The common justifications that I have heard, "This is the last litter the bitch is going to have so if I want this breeding I have to do it now" and "I know my line and xyz isn't a problem so it's okay"

    I would really look closely at the vertical pedigree data on a young dog that is being considered, use Sally's reverse pedigree function and look at what the parents have produced in any older sibs or cousins. This is a little time consuming to have to go back and forth between Sally's database and the OFA one but can really show some trends you might be surprised by.

    Also be aware that there are known breeders with show winners, who are BCOA members who have bred dogs that are known to be dysplastic, meaning you can look them up in the OFA database and see they had them x-rayed, knew the results and bred anyways. There are breeders who have bred dogs who have tested as Fanconi Carriers by marker test to untested or worse. So just because they are well known in the breed does not mean they meet the criteria for responsible.

    0
  • NemoN

    Thanks again for the input.

    Is there a way to see if a dog is still alive that I am missing? The pedigree site doesn't tell you and it wasn't obvious on the AKC or OFA site either. The breeder of the younger dog doesn't have a website that I can tell.

    Connect with the Basenji Club of America on Facebook

    http://www.facebook.com/basenji.org

    0
  • NemoN

    To answer my own question, I guess the breeder or owner would have to go to the effort to report this. Maybe that is unlikely.

    Connect with the Basenji Club of America on Facebook

    http://www.facebook.com/basenji.org

    0
  • lvossL

    It is not really that easy to verify whether a dog is still living or not without talking to the owner or breeder. Many of us who do showing or performance are familiar with each other and keep track of that information for well known dogs.

    0
  • tanzaT

    Neither the OFA or Sally Wallis's pedigree site lists date of death so there is no place to report it, the CPP site now has a place for date of death, but not that many use it or have their information as an open database… the only way to know is if the breeder tells you and/or you happen to know the dogs. In the case of the ones that I noted... I know both the breeders and on some of the lists we all post and talk when one of ours crosses the Rainbow Bridge... and those of us that have web sites will usually note it on there too. If you would like to contact me privately (you can go to my profile and get either my email or my website that has a link to my email) I would happy to tell you what I might or might not know about the pedigree you are looking at.....

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

    0
  • NemoN

    @tanza:

    Neither the OFA or Sally Wallis's pedigree site lists date of death so there is no place to report it, the CPP site now has a place for date of death, but not that many use it or have their information as an open database… the only way to know is if the breeder tells you and/or you happen to know the dogs. In the case of the ones that I noted... I know both the breeders and on some of the lists we all post and talk when one of ours crosses the Rainbow Bridge... and those of us that have web sites will usually note it on there too. If you would like to contact me privately (you can go to my profile and get either my email or my website that has a link to my email) I would happy to tell you what I might or might not know about the pedigree you are looking at.....

    Thanks. I might do that after I meet the breeder this week. Right now, I'm doing as Ivoss suggested and looking through the reverse pedigrees and comparing with the OFA site.

    Connect with the Basenji Club of America on Facebook

    http://www.facebook.com/basenji.org

    0
  • tanzaT

    @Nemo:

    Thanks. I might do that after I meet the breeder this week. Right now, I'm doing as Ivoss suggested and looking through the reverse pedigrees and comparing with the OFA site.

    Always a good thing to do…..

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

    0
  • YodelDogsY

    I just wanted to mention…...OFA is not the only process where hips can be checked for dysplasia. Penn Hip is a more precise measurement and it can be done as early as 4 months of age. Unfortunately, as far as I know, Penn Hip does not have an online database like OFA does so it is impossible to "check up on" breeders who prefer to use this method.

    Robyn Dubbert

    Sherwood Basenjis

    One thing that I have learned in life is to accept that things are not all black or all white. Life is shades of gray and just because someone sees a different shade of gray than you do, it doesn't mean their shade is right or wrong, its just different. ~ Robyn Dubbert

    0
  • tanzaT

    @YodelDogs:

    I just wanted to mention…...OFA is not the only process where hips can be checked for dysplasia. Penn Hip is a more precise measurement and it can be done as early as 4 months of age. Unfortunately, as far as I know, Penn Hip does not have an online database like OFA does so it is impossible to "check up on" breeders who prefer to use this method.

    That is correct, Penn Hip does not have an online database.. however if a breeder were to tell you that they have had hips done using Penn Hip, I would think they have some type of certificate with the results. So if a breeder were to say to me that they used Penn Hip, I would ask to see or get a copy of that certificate.

    Also, note that many breeders will say "I had the hips xray'ed and my Vet said they were fine"… Your regular Vet can not and does not read these xrays and many time what they think is totally different the the 3 Vets that read the results for OFA. I have heard Vets say, "Oh these are good or excellent" only to get back a "fair" from OFA. Or can be the other way... "oh these will be rated good" and come back excellent... And I would question people that do that because you can mark the OFA form for Hips/Elbows that if the dog doesn't pass and is determined Dyplastic that the results are not made public.

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

    0
  • lvossL

    @YodelDogs:

    I just wanted to mention…...OFA is not the only process where hips can be checked for dysplasia. Penn Hip is a more precise measurement and it can be done as early as 4 months of age. Unfortunately, as far as I know, Penn Hip does not have an online database like OFA does so it is impossible to "check up on" breeders who prefer to use this method.

    Actually breeders who want to use PennHip and would like those results published can submit the results and a recording fee to OFA and they will be recorded in the public database. There is no reason why results should not be publicly accessible unless a breeder chooses to not make them so by not submitting them with the recording fee. Same goes for CERF, there are still many who do not submit their fee to make them public which is a loss for the whole breeding community.

    0
  • NemoN

    @tanza:

    If you would like to contact me privately (you can go to my profile and get either my email or my website that has a link to my email) I would happy to tell you what I might or might not know about the pedigree you are looking at…..

    Tanza,
    I'm going to send you an email about this today. If you have the time, I'd appreciate your knowledge regarding the pedigrees. Puppies are going to be born soon, and I need to make a decision regarding which breeder I want to go with. This is getting to be a little more stressful than I wanted it to be!

    Clay

    Connect with the Basenji Club of America on Facebook

    http://www.facebook.com/basenji.org

    0
  • tanzaT

    @Nemo:

    Tanza,
    I'm going to send you an email about this today. If you have the time, I'd appreciate your knowledge regarding the pedigrees. Puppies are going to be born soon, and I need to make a decision regarding which breeder I want to go with. This is getting to be a little more stressful than I wanted it to be!

    Clay

    Sure, no problem. Just go to my homepage (website) and email link is there.

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

    0
  • nomrbddgsN

    Breeding a dog under one year is IMO not quite right. I don't know if I would even go with a prelim that young. There is a reason the OFA won't cert dogs under two years-their bones are not fully developed. Even a prelim under that age IMO cannot be an exact science. And yes, I do know breeders that have used dogs under a year. It's just not for me. For one thing, while many dogs look good young, as they age they lose the 'it' factor. This can be said for dogs that look terrible when they are young and age beautifully. But I would rather have it this way than breed too young. Just because they are 'reputable' breeders or are listed does not mean it's good practice.

    Arlene, the Basenji Brats with the Boxenji![](images/smilies/biggrin.png "Big Grin")

    0
  • S

    Do let us know what you decide re this breeder.

    Sharron Hurlbut

    BRAT, basenji rescue

    Evergreen basenji club

    Seattle Purebred Dog Rescue

    0

Suggested Topics

  • taylor.rene.gT

    When to consider breeding?

    Breeder Talk
    20
    0 Votes
    20 Posts
    8k Views
    DebraDownSouthD
    @bigv said in When to consider breeding?: So Taylor.rene . A little bit about my findings over the last 30 years is that every person who breeds dogs calls them self a responsible breeder? "" Yes, and fortunately for about 20 year now, anyone who really wants to verify if the breeder is actually believable can do so. Some breeders have no problem with incest for the sake of a ribbon as (dogs aren't people )..It is all about titles not the betterment of the breed. Being involved with race horses..<< Gosh, where to begin. " Incest" is a morality terminology, applied as everything from just not parent/child and aunt or uncles/nieces and nephews....all the way to 2nd or even 3rd cousins. It has little to do with genetics, hence adopted children count, and everything to do with moral views. That said, the human race is far from universally avoiding what would be called close line breeding or even incest. Isolated communities ...either physically by geographic terrain or socially by groups such Ashkenazi Jews and Romani, have limited gene pools. Ashkenazi Jews, btw, joke we are all no further than 5th cousins, but it is nearly true. Dogs and animals have no such manmade morals. A common propensity for many mammals to not to mate with closely related animals has nothing to do with incest. In limited populations they will mate, and the problems that arise if it occurs too often are due to decreased gene, increased expression of harmful genes etc. In controlled breeding, line breeding, even close, can be used to find if there are harmful recessives, or bring out desired recessives. If you think it isn't done with livestock, including horses, you're mistaken. With knowledgeable breeders who keep up on genetics, it absolutely is for the betterment of the breed, not a ribbon... Yes I am not a fan of line breeding but it seems that every zoo in the world has a similar view as they are always swapping animals to improve the genes . ...<<<<< Again, absolutely nothing to do with incest. Zoo animals, even those of nonendangered species, have a serious issue with limited gene pools. The level of that limitation cannot be compared to most pet breeds. We aren't talking many thousands of individuals, or millions, but sometimes 100 or less. Stud books are kept, for example, on all the polar bears in zoos and the effort to keep the diversification as high as possible is serious. (I'll leave out my views on them being in zoos.) So sure, if dog breeders were faced with THAT level of limited gene pool, line breeding would probably be avoided as much as possible. However, that all ignores the fact that dogs in any breed are mostly related.. If you go back 10 or more generations, you find the same dogs heavily in most lines. Sometimes 2 dogs that aren't related 3 generations back may share more actual genes than a closely related dog who has a lot of breeding out of the line on one side. That's where knowledgeable breeders come in. Having studied dingos for the past 15 years I can say without dought a bitch won't mate with relative... They are similar to basenjis in many ways. ...<< That's nice that you've studied them. But researchers are making new discoveries based on actual observations and finding a lot of what they thought isn't true. With massive interbreeding with domestic dogs, the pure dingos are disappearing. I envy those of you able to see them. However researchers suspect they have ...>>During this a hitherto unknown form of the “pure” dingo was discovered (based on DNA and skull features): a white dog with orange spots on the fur. This variant was considered as a single mutation or the result of interbreeding with an isolated dingo population.<< So they don't rule it out. (I downloaded to read, over 100 pages but you might love it. I'll save for later! https://web.archive.org/details/http://www.invasiveanimals.com/downloads/Final-proceedings-with-cover.pdf ) And my boy does have a title that no other basenji has . He is the first and only basenji to be approved by the Victorian State Goverment to be authorised to hunt deer on private and public land within its borders. But to some this would make him unsuitable to breed with you figure?<<< First, while you have done an impressive job with you dogs, I am pretty sure that is a privilege given, not a "title," and I am 100% certain his being able to would have nothing to do with whether anyone deemed him not worthy of breeding to. With the right health checks, good conformation, etc, I would think a good plus...especially if the bitch owner wanted to possibly enhance hunting ability. It simply isn't enough.
  • diff_eqsD

    Breeding for the first time?

    Breeder Talk
    32
    0 Votes
    32 Posts
    14k Views
    diff_eqsD
    Thanks everyone who has shared their knowledge and opinions on the matter! I got all the tests done, just waiting for the results from the OFA. Say all the results are good/clear/negative/etc. I already spoke to a couple breeders, so I have a couple of potential studs picked out. What are some of the other steps involved, i.e. registering the litter, etc.?
  • JannekeJ

    Allergies and Breeding

    Breeder Talk
    7
    0 Votes
    7 Posts
    5k Views
    BasenjimammaB
    I had a Westie, that past over the rainbow bridge late March, that was allergic to storage mites. Storage mites are basically in anything stored on shelves in warehouses or stores for longer periods of time, like dry kibble, flour, grains and the like. So essentially he couldn't eat any dry nothing, so we went on raw and he did great. Of course he was also allergic to mold and flea saliva. Mold allergy and living in Houston, TX is a bad combo, it is everywhere, due to the humidity we have, and of course that also makes fleas very hardy. Bogus was on frontline and advantage together most of his life, that was the only way to keep fleas off of him and fur on him. He lived to be 13 years, which for me is way too young, but for a dog that has been on steroids and several meds throughout his life, realisticly it is not short. Either way, he clearly should not have been considered a breeding dog, even thought he was a beautiful example of what West Highland White Terriers should be like. My point, it depends on what type of allergies the dog has and the severity of them, in my ever so humble opinion..
  • jkmcd673J

    Studding my dog?

    Breeder Talk
    17
    0 Votes
    17 Posts
    7k Views
    BeckyB
    I am sorry to jump in late & reply. I have been way to busy to spend time on the internet & am indulging myself the week. It may be months before I visit the Forum again. Regarding breeding your boy. Most breeders will not breed to a male they do not know. They pick a Stud dog for his Health Testing, Pedigree, Show record, conformation & the owners connected. Sometimes location plays a major part. Conformation plays a big part of picking a Stud dog i.e. will he improve on my bitches movement? Topline? Earset? No dog is perfect & we are breeding to improve the Breed not to make money or just have puppies. Not questioning your information, but I would reccomend doing some research & getting all the information you can about you boy. Next regardless of breeding him or not, do ALL the health testing. This will be helpful for your Basenji's future health & maintance. Not all dogs or bitches are 'worthy' of being bred. Find out if you's is worthy & be picky about the bitch he is bred to. It is much easier to buy a Show quality puppy than to breed your next Show prospect. I work for a Veterinarian & many Dog owners want to 'Stud Out' their male. This never happens! As a bitch owner I will find the best dog out there that will mesh with my bitch to produce better puppies. Lastly I have had a dog die very suddenly from prostate problems. He died before I could get him to the Vet. This was years ago when the risk of anestetic was not worth it to me. He was a mix breed & a wonderful dog. Gumby taught he so much in life & his death taught me even more. Don't make the same mistake I made, it isn't worth it. NOT all Finished Champions are of true breeding quality. And "Sperm is Cheap"!! Best of luck & hugs to the pups. Becky & the Ninjas
  • WBLW

    In-Breeding/Line Breeding

    Breeder Talk
    18
    0 Votes
    18 Posts
    7k Views
    tanzaT
    @Quercus: <> Right...I wasn't sure if that was the litter that Sue was referring to? But I don't know of her doing any other brother/sister breeding. So yes, Ariel is a product of that breeding. The idea was to do a test breeding to see what genetically, if anything, might be brought out. By doing an inbreeding, you can 'expose' recessive genes, and see what you've actually got. You can also set (as in permanantly set) type...but, that wasn't the goal in Sue/Jeff's breeding. In this case, the two "best" "typey" puppies from this litter will most likely be bred on from, as long as they test out as genetically and physically healthy, they will most likely be out-crossed, to bring in different genes. Ariel's brother, George, is quite stunning, and is easily the best looking puppy in the litter. Ariel has a beautiful head, but is long in body, short in leg. Neither one is what we consider a "show dog" ;) And the litter's sire is quite handsome!.... the dam of the litter, while long in the back and short on leg (like it sounds Ariel is) has a great temperament... both are great to build on the future.... and breeding out from these pups will be great to build on too.... I am pretty sure that would be the breeding Sue was talking about, like you I don't know of any other brother/sister breeding she and Jeff has done.
  • WBLW

    Required Testing Before Breeding

    Breeder Talk
    14
    0 Votes
    14 Posts
    5k Views
    lvossL
    The other option for hips before the age of 2 years is PennHip which does certifications at a younger age than OFA.