Good luck with her. Sounds like you are working on things … hopefully she'll come around.
Help please!
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The breeders that are on this forum are not "professional breeders" either. Most are what people refer to as hobby breeders. Many don't have kennels, breed occasionally, and show, course, race, do agility, etc with our dogs as part of our relationship with our dogs.
There are many people who own a couple of dogs and think they will be "helping" either people or the breed if they breed them since they are just such fantastic companions that they must be exemplary specimens of the breed. Unfortunately, that is not always the case. Everyone on this forum loves their basenjis and in their eyes their dogs are the epitome of "basenji" but from a breeding standpoint that may not be the case. The hardest thing as a breeder is to look at your dog with a critical eye and ask "What does this dog have to offer the breed?"
Were both of your puppy's parents DNA tested for Fanconi? Did you verify the results on the OFA website, http://www.offa.org, to be sure that at least one tested Clear? Did you make sure the parents also had a hip rating and a current CERF exam? Did the breeder have CERF exams performed on the puppies before sending them home? This is especially important if you bought your puppy as a show/breeding prospect because PPM is at its worst when they are puppies so it would be important information when selecting for health.
As for "grading", typically a breeder will grade their litter at 8 weeks old, which is when the pups look most like what they will look like as adults before they start going through funky growing stages. At this point, the breeder will look at each puppy's conformation and grade them against the standard and decide which have potential as show/performance prospects and which are best suited to pet homes. Just because a puppy comes from spectacular parents does not mean it will turn out to actually be show potential.
If your breeder was not able to discuss with you the strengths and weaknesses of your puppy based on the standard then I highly recommend you get together with some basenji people and have them go over your puppy. Be prepared to hear both the good and the bad, no dog is perfect, and if you are serious about showing it can be really discouraging to be at the "back of the bus" and not understand what the judges may be seeing that you are not.
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Both the parents are AKC registered yes…
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For some more information about grading puppies, here is a website about what breeders look for. http://www.geocities.com/rugosab/ConformationPage.htm
Tricks of the Trade by Pat Hastings discusses evaluating a dog or litter as well as how to show your dog. http://www.dogfolk.com/trickstrade_revised.htm
Finding out when your nearest basenji club is hosting their puppy match is and making sure you plan to attend should also be at the top of your list.
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Whether or not the puppy is truly show potential there is no reason why he cannot be shown if he has full AKC registration and both testicles. Kristie can use this puppy as an introduction to the dog show world, to learn on and see if this is a hobby she may enjoy. The sport needs new people and Clay (Nemo) has offered to introduce Kristie to some people up in that area. Let's hope they will be nice to her.
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Thank you so much YodelDogs!! That is what I really looked for when buying this puppy….one that was a good representation of the breed standard (and I really think he is!)from a breeder who was responsible, honest and willing to answer any questions I have now and down the road. Trust me I understand being objective...I used to be a professional dairy cattle fitter (groomer)
I am really enthusiastic about trying this sport and I was just looking for any helpful information anyone could offer
And I really looking forward to meeting some breeders at my first dog show in Eau Claire in April! -
Though any AKC dog with full registration and 2 testicles can be shown, it can become very discouraging very quickly to be last place at every show. Even more so if you have no idea why because you don't have someone helping you to understand dog structure and conformation. And that is what happens when the dog who is the apple in the eye of the owner is not of the same quality as the others in the ring and the novice owner has no one to help them learn the finer points of the standard.
I think two key components to getting new people to stick around is 1. A good quality dog and 2. A good mentor to provide support.
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Though any AKC dog with full registration and 2 testicles can be shown, it can become very discouraging very quickly to be last place at every show. Even more so if you have no idea why because you don't have someone helping you to understand dog structure and conformation. And that is what happens when the dog who is the apple in the eye of the owner is not of the same quality as the others in the ring and the novice owner has no one to help them learn the finer points of the standard.
I think two key components to getting new people to stick around is 1. A good quality dog and 2. A good mentor to provide support.
The only discouraging thing is that you are already assuming I am going to be last place at every show I attend…and maybe I will be, but at least I will be able to learn first hand the finer points of conformation and I will have the essential skills needed to compete again with another dog when the time is right...but this is where I am starting from right now-and we all have to start somewhere right?
I am so thankful for the people who have been supportive and those whom I have not yet met willing to help a newcomer in learning the basics so I can build my knowledge from there.
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What I am saying is that you really need to talk to people who can see your puppy in person, and have hands on it and give you an honest evaluation of your dog. With a trindle, honestly, you may very well find yourself last under certain judges. There are judges that are "red or dead" and others who just don't accept the AKC and BCOA opinion that trindle is covered by our standard and your breeder should have warned you about that since you were specifically looking for a show dog.
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Though any AKC dog with full registration and 2 testicles can be shown, it can become very discouraging very quickly to be last place at every show. Even more so if you have no idea why because you don't have someone helping you to understand dog structure and conformation. And that is what happens when the dog who is the apple in the eye of the owner is not of the same quality as the others in the ring and the novice owner has no one to help them learn the finer points of the standard.
I think two key components to getting new people to stick around is 1. A good quality dog and 2. A good mentor to provide support.
The above is my opinion in general not about anyone specifically. I see many newcomers to shows come with their beloved pet that someone said, "Don't worry, it will be your starter dog. That way you know what you are doing with your next one." They come to a handful of shows and never get that "next one" because they are so discouraged by being out of ribbons or last place or not even having that person who told them to get in the ring with that dog there to help when they do step into the ring.
So I just have to put out there that IMO it is not the best advice to tell beginners to just show whatever dog they have because at least they will get experience because the experience they tend to get is that showing is really disappointing. They don't get tend to get the postive reinforcement of placements or wins or their mentor(s) letting them know they are improving.
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The above is my opinion in general not about anyone specifically. I see many newcomers to shows come with their beloved pet that someone said, "Don't worry, it will be your starter dog. That way you know what you are doing with your next one." They come to a handful of shows and never get that "next one" because they are so discouraged by being out of ribbons or last place or not even having that person who told them to get in the ring with that dog there to help when they do step into the ring.
So I just have to put out there that IMO it is not the best advice to tell beginners to just show whatever dog they have because at least they will get experience because the experience they tend to get is that showing is really disappointing. They don't get tend to get the postive reinforcement of placements or wins or their mentor(s) letting them know they are improving.
I totally agree with lvoss… and you have to have thick skin to be able to accept your dogs faults and understand why you might not be winning. When you have a mentor and/or your breeder that is right there with you, you have someone to lean on... good/bad or inbetween
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Though any AKC dog with full registration and 2 testicles can be shown, it can become very discouraging very quickly to be last place at every show. Even more so if you have no idea why because you don't have someone helping you to understand dog structure and conformation. And that is what happens when the dog who is the apple in the eye of the owner is not of the same quality as the others in the ring and the novice owner has no one to help them learn the finer points of the standard.
I think two key components to getting new people to stick around is 1. A good quality dog and 2. A good mentor to provide support.
He could be stunning, though Lisa! I have seen more than one dog come from less than an ideal background that finished their championship with novice handlers.
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He could be stunning, though Lisa! I have seen more than one dog come from less than an ideal background that finished their championship with novice handlers.
Which is why he needs to be evaluated by someone or someones who are willing to be honest. And truly honest, meaning if he is stunning dog will say so no matter his background and if he isn't will say so kindly but isn't going to use the dog as point fodder for their own dogs.
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The above is my opinion in general not about anyone specifically. I see many newcomers to shows come with their beloved pet that someone said, "Don't worry, it will be your starter dog. That way you know what you are doing with your next one." They come to a handful of shows and never get that "next one" because they are so discouraged by being out of ribbons or last place or not even having that person who told them to get in the ring with that dog there to help when they do step into the ring.
So I just have to put out there that IMO it is not the best advice to tell beginners to just show whatever dog they have because at least they will get experience because the experience they tend to get is that showing is really disappointing. They don't get tend to get the postive reinforcement of placements or wins or their mentor(s) letting them know they are improving.
All of the above is true….and it will most likely be even more frustrating with a trindle. But showing a dog can be frustrating even with a nice dog, a ton of support, and plenty of money....
I think perserverance, being fiercely interested in the breed, and making friends that you like to hang out with is what keeps most amatures showing dogs. For most of us, it certainly isn't the positive reinforcement of ribbons
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Which is why he needs to be evaluated by someone or someones who are willing to be honest. And truly honest, meaning if he is stunning dog will say so no matter his background and if he isn't will say so kindly but isn't going to use the dog as point fodder for their own dogs.
I agree…but I don't think we should insinuate that someone shouldn't even bother to try to show a dog that isn't from a responsible breeder. Everybody starts somewhere, and I know that you understand that. If someone is interested I think we should foster their interest, and help them decide if showing really interests them.
For others reading...sometimes (most of the time) showing isn't really about winning. People who are involved in conformation are demonstrating a commitment to their breed, its future and its heritage. It is usually where you learn to LOVE the breed, not just your own dogs. You become a student of the breed when you attend local and national specialties, and you make connections and friends that help you become a connoisseur (if you will) of the breed.
We don't really have many people in our area who will treat newbies as point fodder...but, of course, it isn't nearly as hard to find a major here as it is on the West Coast.
I do understand what you are saying
I just don't want to scare people away, who may be awesome additions to our community. -
I don't want to scare people away but this sport is not naturally reinforcing.
To say it isn't all about winning isn't really correct, everyone who steps in the ring with their dog wants to win. So it is about winning. Many of us find other reinforcers to keep us coming back like learning about the breed, seeing friends etc, because the bottom line is only 1 dog and 1 bitch on any given day go home with points so most of us will go home feeling empty handed unless we are also getting something else out of it.
When people don't have mentor that is helping them make those connections with people and be the instructors in the breed they lose those reinforcers. When people start with a dog that is not conformationally a "good" dog they lose out on the reinforcement that winning gives. So then showing really becomes pretty tedious.
I'm not saying this to scare people away. Mentors don't have to be your dog's breeder. Conformationally good dogs come from all sorts of backgrounds. But when these ingredients aren't there, this sport is a pretty cold place. It can get pretty chilly even with them.
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yep to all the above. Which is why I do agility. (okay, i also do a little conformation.) The bar stays up or it doesn't, the dog stays on course, or not. We qualify, or we find out what we need to work on.
Conformation does require a thick skin - you start with it, or you develop it. But sooner or later you realize it is just ONE person's oppinion. IME, there is lots to learn and almost everyone I've met has been helpful and friendly (both in the basenji conformation ring and in the agility ring). Try a few shows and don't decide to quit based on any one show. If it's not for you, try coursing, agility, rally, obedience, tracking, therapy, etc. There a lots of ways to have fun with your pup.
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All of the above is true….and it will most likely be even more frustrating with a trindle. But showing a dog can be frustrating even with a nice dog, a ton of support, and plenty of money....
I've tried the frustration with a nice dog and I've tried it with a ton of support. Could I now try it with plenty of money? :rolleyes:
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I've tried the frustration with a nice dog and I've tried it with a ton of support. Could I now try it with plenty of money? :rolleyes:
Ha, ha! The only time I showed a dog and had plenty of money (two job family, no debt, no kids) the darn dog finished in a few months….the ones that have taken years have been done on a shoestring! And dog showing has gotten ridiculously expensive!! $25 - $30 bucks for entries! It was half that when we started
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I don't want to scare people away but this sport is not naturally reinforcing.
To say it isn't all about winning isn't really correct, everyone who steps in the ring with their dog wants to win. So it is about winning. Many of us find other reinforcers to keep us coming back like learning about the breed, seeing friends etc, because the bottom line is only 1 dog and 1 bitch on any given day go home with points so most of us will go home feeling empty handed unless we are also getting something else out of it.
When people don't have mentor that is helping them make those connections with people and be the instructors in the breed they lose those reinforcers. When people start with a dog that is not conformationally a "good" dog they lose out on the reinforcement that winning gives. So then showing really becomes pretty tedious.
I'm not saying this to scare people away. Mentors don't have to be your dog's breeder. Conformationally good dogs come from all sorts of backgrounds. But when these ingredients aren't there, this sport is a pretty cold place. It can get pretty chilly even with them.
Again, I have to agree with lvoss. When I first started showing, my mentor made me "painfully" aware of my dogs faults… and the good things too.... but more the faults. And honestly, if someone asks me to evaluate their dogs, they will hear the bad things first... In fact, I think that lvoss can attest to that... and I have told people that, sorry I don't think your dog/bitch really makes the grade, but that is my opinion... and they asked.
And as said, at the end of the day, it is just ones person's opinion, however when that opinion becomes the voice of many that is when people lose interest in this sport. When they hear that they lost because of politics in the ring with this person or that person, first they need to understand is their dog of the quality that should be in the ring.
I have lost my share to what might have been an equal dog because another handler was more well know that I, but in the end, if you have a quality dog it all comes out in the wash.. at least again, that is my opinion. Key comment here is "of equal".
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I would love to have someone look at my dog and tell me both the good things and the bad…I am open to criticism, but how can you say that winning is the only thing rewarding about dog showing? Isn't a big part of being in the ring (or doing agility, field trials, lure coursing or whatever) building a stronger relationship between you, your dog and other people who share the same interests? Plus having FUN
Now, don't take me for someone who isn't competitive...trust me, I am and I do understand everyone wanting to win-but that isnt the only motivation for doing this.
I showed dairy cattle professionally for about 10 years...I have shown some of the best cattle in the country and I have stood at the top of the class, the middle, and at the tail end. I think everyone who has ever shown an animal has. But knowing that you are going to stand at the top of every class just isnt reasonable...we buy or breed an animal with an idea of what we have and how they will stack up against what someone else might have, but in the end it is the other 364 days of the year that make going to the show worth it. The blood sweat and tears that come with owning and loving an animal, and the joy of "showing them off" and competing.
Just because I have never shown a dog before doesn't mean that I didn't do my research, or that I didn't buy him from a responsible person. I knew ahead of time that showing a Trindle could be to my disadvantage, but the standard says that a clear definition between colors is okay, something which he has. (If you think showing a trindle could be frustrating, try showing a red and white holtstein in a black and white class )
I understand the ups and downs of being in the show ring...and I started this thread to get any helpful tips anyone might have on what I can do to START learning the process not asking whether or not I should show my dog-because I am going to show him. And if we stand at the "back of the bus" well, then I will try something else or try a different show. But I love my Basenji, am very glad that I found him and would like to meet other Basenji breeders and hopefully own another one someday...
