@eeeefarm:

Personally I find this scenario unlikely, if the dog has been properly trained with the fence. I've had quite a bit of experience with different species of animals (horses, dogs, cattle, goats, sheep, etc.) and electric barriers. An animal that has been properly introduced has no confusion whatsoever about the source of the discomfort, or the fact that the option of getting zapped is entirely up to him/her.

Late to the party, as usual…

Unfortunately, Lisa's scenario is repeated far too often with dogs. We have seen it a number of times. The fact is, that even the most well timed positive punisher has one thing not within the handler's control: what is most salient to the dog at the time. Even if the training is consistent and well timed, if -in that moment- the thing that was most in the dog's mind was the other dog, they could most certainly associate the shock with the other dog.

If OP's dog has had pleasant experiences with big dogs, but only unpleasant with small dogs (I get to play with big dogs, little dogs only pass by/cause me to get shocked) it is certainly plausible (but guessing on our part and it could just as easily be that she just doesn't like small dogs). Also, though perhaps irrelevant, Dr.Jim Ha stated in one of his DVDs* that Toy Poodles have in tests proven to be less able to readily recognize social signals in other dogs, thereby making them sort of doggie cretins (my word, not his). So while the behavior is uncool, several factors could certainly play in, including the invisible fence. And then there of course is your key phrase, "if the dog has been properly trained with the fence". Many are poorly trained with the fence and, IME, many are willing to run through it given a good enough reason. Just one more reason I dislike them.

Gotta say, I agree with everyone else that has said, "Get a physical fence." If you had one, OP, this would never have happened.

*"Behavioral Genetics" IIRC

@sinbaje:

She is slowly but surely getting necessary health testing on her dogs, recently having spent a number of weeks in a hotel, in an area where the testing can be more easily done; one of the disadvantages of living in Idaho!

First let me say, I don't know Rose Marie. My personal interactions with her have been minimal. I'm only responding to the implication that it is difficult to health test dogs in Idaho.

I lived there from 2005 to 2007, not far from Rose Marie. She was, at least at the time, in Nampa. I lived in Star. It's not difficult. Hips, elbows, patella, thyroid, Fanconi… totally easy. CERF is the only thing that takes a little extra effort and I do know that at least once or twice per year an ophthalmologist comes to Boise for a clinic. Or at least that was the case a few years ago and I cannot imagine things have become more difficult with the population growth they experienced during that time.

Rose Marie, if you are reading, call WestVet in Boise to find out when they are hosting their next clinic.

@DebraDownSouth:

Andrea, great post. I have taught many dogs bite inhibition at a much older age, though… only thing you wrote I don't heartily agree with.

Yes, I understand that it is possible but I'd like to know more about it. Generally it's accepted that teaching remedial ABI is difficult to do at best, at least amongst the trainers I know, talk to and read. Dunbar says he's done it but I tried to pin him down at a seminar and he was evasive. I was hoping to get specifics, training program and how to test it or pointed at one. He said to buy his DVDs. I did.

Best I could find was teaching a better ritualized bite and jaw prudence and done my best to scour books and websites as well (and speaking with colleagues, natch). What I found didn't really satisfy me. I mean, when I think of teaching ABI, I am thinking of teaching it so that it holds up even under duress since that's when it's most important.

For instance a colleague was recently contacted about a Level 5 biter. If it's possible to teach reliable ABI in adult dogs THAT dog should be a candidate for sure. I'd love to assist someone teaching it to a dog like that, or in training a dog that has poor ABI with other dogs. How could you train and test that safely or humanely? What is the liability there? Pretty serious, I would think.

I do remember my first basenji experience though. I have trained and worked with dogs my entire adult life. So imagine my surprise when squeaking caused her to bite MORE, lol. Change of tactics. Life offers us so many opportunities to learn new things. :)

Ah yes, I've had one of those. I changed to a calm "too bad" and then removing myself. Worked MUCH better. Depends on the dog.

EDIT: I just looked at the site you linked and what she is talking about is what I refer to as 'jaw prudence'. When I use ABI, I'm referring to how hard the dog bites when it bites, not if it puts its mouth on you. For instance, your Rottie I would say had great ABI but iffy jaw prudence. OTOH, there are dogs with great jaw prudence but the one time they use their mouths they do it will full jaw force. I'd much prefer the former.

@DebraDownSouth:

Andrea, not sure what the "who cares" is about. If you don't care about the topic, why even click on it?

Ha! Yep, totally mistook me, Debra. ;) I don't care about "dominance"! It's a lot more constructive to decide if you are okay or not okay with any given behavior and then modify it as needed. "Dominance" and "dominant" are words that have a load of baggage and they are not clearly defined in most people's minds. I do care about dogs and people having healthy, happy relationships and find worrying about what is or is not "dominant" muddies the waters and can side track people in working with their dogs. It takes up brain space better dedicated to other things IMO. So that's why I say, who cares? Let's just work on the behavior!

Dominance certainly exists but it's contextual, fluid and not well understood. And, really, I find totally irrelevant between dogs and humans. If you define 'dominance' as having primary access to food, water, shelter and mates humans are by default dominant to dogs as we have absolute control over what and when our pets eat, whether or not they have water, where they live and their access to mates. We may fail to exercise that control but it is ours.

Well, first I will say I have a STRONG bias in my "who cares?" attitude about so called dominance. Honestly, it has zero relevance in dog-human relationships. If you like his kisses, let him do it. If you don't like it teach him to quit doing it.

Licking is typically an appeasement gesture, greeting, grooming or in pups a way to get Mama to vomit so you can EAT!

Lots of great links here: http://www.woofology.com/alpha%20myth.html

@sharronhurlbut:

Andrea.
Are you the GREAT trainer I know??

Ha ha! I suppose so! :) Thanks for the kind words, Sharron.

@Kipawa:

Okay, knock me on the head a couple of times. I have no idea why, but I fit the harness so that the leash attaches behind Kipawa's shoulder/back. I hadn't looked at the picture showing the correct placement where the leash attaches in the front. Attaching the leash on the back seems to work for Kipawa. Are there any physical concerns to doing it this way? There are still no areas being irritated.

Yes, it negates the purpose of the harness.

The purpose is to A) help you teach the dog to check in and look back rather than pull and B) NOT to engage the opposition reflex, which rear clipping harnesses are designed to do (they are "inspired" by sled harnesses).

Yes, front clip harnesses (like any other) may chaff if the dog pulls enough. The purpose is to train the dog not to pull, so if your dog is habituated to the weird feeling of the harness and is just leaning into it and pulling hard enough to rub fur off you're doing it wrong!;)

@red:

he has SEVERAL toys of all differents types and yet still finds a pencil or underwear or chair to chew on…

Manage his environment better. If he's getting pencils, etc, it is because you left them within reach. Of course he's interested! He's only been alive 16 weeks. THE WORLD is interesting!! Just take the offending item gently (I always thank my dog for finding such neat things!) and offer him a "legal" toy instead. Praise, praise, praise!

the only time he is sweet is when he is tired meaning he also chews on ME.

Hooray! You want him to chew on you! You have 2 weeks left to develop his ABI (acquired bite inhibition - how hard he bites when he bites). After 18wks of age, ABI is "set" for the most part. A dog MUST be allowed to bite humans if it is supposed to learn to do so gently and about 9 out of 10 dogs will, at some point, put it's teeth on a human for some reason. Knowing how to do so using minimal jaw force is a learned skill. If your puppy's bite hurts, YELP and get up and leave for 15 seconds. When you come back, if he doesn't bite more softly, YELP and end the play session. Over the next two weeks expect softer and softer bites.

Once our puppy is 18wks old, that is the time to start teaching him, you know, really, you shouldn't bite. If he puts his mouth on you or your clothes just tell him (in a normal tone), "Too bad" and leave the area. Play time is over. Too bad, so sad.

Also i am crate training him. At night… no problem sleeps well through the night, no noise or yodel or howl. but during work hours i have to crate him up too 6 hours.. [snip] but when i get home he has peed more then once in his crate and then shreds his sheet.

That is too much crate time for a 16wk old puppy. Average ability to "hold it" is 15min per week of age. That means your puppy should not be crated (during the day, night is different) more than 4hrs. You need to have a long term confinement area that includes a puppy toilet.

See Before You Get Your Puppy for more info.

Get into Puppy PreSchool right away with a qualified trainer ASAP. This is all normal puppy stuff. :)

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about the whole dominance thing. There is no evidence that shows humping has anything to do with social rank, nor will NILIF (which is a good lifestyle for any dog) directly address the problem behavior.

Chances are, he's humping because A) he's excited B) it feels good (either physically or it's just FUN) and C) because he can.

Zepar used to sometimes try to hump my leg during breeding season. Just interrupt it (clap your hands or say, "Uh-uh-uh!") and then redirect him into an acceptable behavior. Then praise, praise, praise. So you have to decide, what's a good alternative to humping? For Zep, because I knew it was sexually related (only during 'that time' and because he was intact) I bought him a great big doll and encouraged him to hump -it- instead. We'd get his hedgie doll and I'd get him totally ramped up. When he humped it I'd let him know how AWESOME he is. Tug of war (with rules) might be another good alternative behavior. Whatever you choose, I'd make it something active and engaging.

I also would not push him away if you can avoid it - this can be seen as a play invitation. Chances are, you'll recognize "that look" so redirect him before he starts humping you. That way you both win!

The Wonder Walker is my personal favorite.

Also, it's important to note that after wearing it for a while most dogs will habituate to the harness and start pulling again if you don't actively train the dog to walk on a loose leash. This applies to all harnesses. ;-)

My advice is to leave the park the moment you see a dog you believe may trigger him. And make sure you see it first!

To change your dog's reaction, you need to begin a desensitization and counter-conditioning program. Which means that you cannot expose him to his "scary thing" to the intensity such that he begins to growl. Once he's tipped into an emotional behavior, you've missed the boat on your opportunity to change his internal reaction.

If he's growling at say, 20 feet, you can probably start to notice other warning signals before hand, such as a freeze or hard eye. Even that's too late. You have to get to him before he starts to tip - while he's still comfortable. Which means working in a controlled environment. That is with dogs on leashes.

A good trainer can create a training program for you and work with you on this, but repeatedly exposing him to large, dark dogs and waiting until he's already growling to get outta dodge is reinforcing his fear. And the recent scuffle really reinforced it. I'd say you really need to up your situational awareness or start skipping the dog park. Every time he has an unpleasant experience with a large, dark dog just tells him he was right to be uncomfortable, even if the other dog does nothing but appear.

Lysh,

You didn't say why the trainer suggested a Halti. To what end? I normally only recommend the Halti to owners of large dogs who are having serious pulling or reactivity problems. If Hope pulls, I prefer the Sense-ation or Wonder Walker to the Easy Walk, as I do not like the martingale effect on the EW and feel it gives less clear feed back and they seem to require more frequent adjusting for fit.

WRT spitting out treats I have two thoughts:

Try higher value (think real food, like boiled chicken)
She may be slightly anxious and unable to accept food

One of my dogs is an anxious fellow and usually cannot accept food in certain environments because he is too "on". It took roughly 2 years of living in our new neighborhood before he could accept food on our walks. Just a thought there. It took me a long time to realize that's what was going on with him.

She has a lovely play style. Lots of give and take. Love that!

None of the problems you have described warrant a behaviorist. A good trainer yes, and probably a basic obedience class too.

@eizenga13:

1. Still gets overly excited when people come to visit. She will be loving and ears back when the guests first arrive. And once guests are relaxed out come her teeth… She doesn't BITE she Mouths... If she gets to excited she will Mouth a little harder than other times...

The moment she puts teeth on anyone, she needs to get a 10 second time out. Every single time. Once you've marked the naughty behavior (I like "too bad") say nothing else to her. Just calmly collect her and time her out. You must be absolutely consistent. This works.

@eizenga13:

2. She licks herself like crazy… I mean LIKE ALL THE TIME. Lick-lick-lick-lick... that is all we hear her doing... I know a clean dog is great but MY GOD!! Any ideas here?!

Is this a problem? Is she causing damage to herself? If so, see your vet. Otherwise I'd leave her alone.

@eizenga13:

3. If she is sleeping on me and my lady tries to pick her up to crate her she snarrles and growls and will absolutely try to bit and is extremely vocals..

This is a problem with either resource guarding or body handling. You need a trainer to help you with this. For now, don't move her bodily. Call her. When she arrives have her do a sit or a down and then, give her a food reward. Then ask her to crate up. I assume she goes in willingly. If not, that is a whole separate issue. You should never force a dog into a crate.

@eizenga13:

4. She (Kevin) for the first time ever has chewed up not only our bed spread in the dead center of the bed but also a very expensive couch cushion, that I flipped when she tore it up 3 days again and today she tore up the other side…... This has never been something she has done

She should not be allowed access to things things that will upset you if destroyed. You know now she has a propensity for it, so manage her.

@eizenga13:

5. Loves to steal our socks and underwear and run around with it (since she was a baby she knows it gets a rise out of us so I am pretty sure I don't know how to NOT get a rise from this?). Now I know that if we don't go after her she would relax with it because it doesn't 'get our goat' but she has ruined too much stuff when we simply try to ignore it.

See above. If you cannot ignore it, don't allow her access to socks and underwear. See a trainer to teach you how to train her to "drop it".

@eizenga13:

6. When she want to play we will but we make it on OUR terms not hers…when we want to stop, well that is when the mouthing starts up and we again... try to ignore it and she will simply go after any extremity she can... so she will go to time out.

When play time is over, say a phrase like, "All done!" and then totally blow her off. The second her mouth so much as touchs your skin or clothing, say "too bad" and time her out for 10 seconds. Every. Single. Time.

It also sounds like your dog isn't getting enough exercise. Dogs should have 40 min to an hour of cardio. A walk is not cardio. Also try enriching her environment by feeding her out of work to eat puzzles and take her to training class. The destruction sounds like a bored dog, the rest is adolescent stuff. Mostly very normal stuff that any decent trainer can help you with.

One thing I would be leery of is leaving the dogs together unsupervised. Do you plan to confine the dogs when you are out? Personally, since Otto's problems are medical, I don't think I would ever leave them together.

How well socialized are your girls to brachiocephalic dogs? What do you mean by "intense" with regards to your dogs? How often do your girls and Otto meet and play with new dogs? How well are the meds working for Otto?

I will concur with Lisa. See a CAAB or a veterinary behaviorist so that your dog can be evaluated and possibly put on medication.

SepAnx is simple to treat, but by no means easy. The sad fact is that many dog owners do not have the time or financial means to handle it because step one is to stop reinforcing his fear. That means that during treatment, the dog cannot be left alone. This means that when you go out, you'll need someone to stay with him.

Please at least consult a good local trainer who can give you a training plan to get started on and who can evaluate whether or not drugs are warranted.

I LOVE Tug, but all games need rules. These are the rules we use: http://www.urbandawgs.com/articles/tug.pdf

Try seeking out a good veterinary dermatologist. I know a great one in Seattle, but that won't help you.

Good luck!

@TuckerVA:

I really need some personal advice on a dog who bites unpredictably.
…
No issues with the dogs, but Tucker has proven in the past 3 years that he is definately a biter. His biting is unpredictable and the count is somewhere between 10 and 30 bites. 10%-20% have broken the skin and bled, most scratch, few puncture - but even that has happened a couple times. Most often it involves a turn of the head and a snap on the wrist. Lightning fast and most often there is little to no warning
...
However, he will pretty much bite anyone else on the planet. We have no idea why. We do know he was undersocialized,
...
He is not aggressive. I know that doesn't make sense, but to explain - you can come into my house and be 100% safe if you ignore him. It's when he's reached for that he reacts. There is typically no warning at all. However, if you approach his 'space' once he's comfortable, he will growl if he feels you are encroaching, but has never attacked unless provoked (in that situation).

Hi Jason,

I've quoted portions of your story that I thought most salient. First is the good news:
Your dog has semi-decent ABI. That is acquired bite inhibition, or how hard he bites when he bites. You've got a LOT of history there, which tells you he mostly will not do serious damage.

Your dog appears, according to you, to be VERY predictable with his bites: It happens when you reach for him AND you know why: he's under-socialized.

The bad news: Chances are, he was "trained" not to warn. We see this all the time. Many owners think they are doing a good think when they punish or reprimand dogs for growling. I see this in pet owners and long-time breeders alike. Truth is, they are simply teaching their dogs not to telegraph their discomfort but it does nothing to change the internal workings of the dog. Dogs growl because they are uncomfortable and I want to know this! Sadly, when owners punish growling dogs they are shutting off the warning signal.

Dogs are great discriminators. It would appear that Tucker was "trained" not to growl when being reached for, but it wasn't entirely punished out when he's in his safe zone. Cool. At least he's still free to tell you "Please don't come closer." I hope everyone listens when he says this.

I will say this with extreme emphasis: Do not seek out CM or CM style trainers to treat this problem!

CM is not a behaviorist. He is not schooled in behavior modification and if his show is any indication he does not understand Animal Learning Theory. His methods are those I briefly touched on above. He turns behavior off but he does nothing to address the underlying issue. If you want a dog that just "shuts up and puts up" that's the way to go. If you want Tucker to learn to be comfortable having strangers reach for him, stay far, far away from anyone that uses physical force, flooding, bullying or any other "quick fix". This problem is going to take you a long time to handle and you may always need to step in and be Tucker's advocate.

You need an accredited behaviorist (one with a Phd) or at least a very gentle, positive reinforcement style trainer who will help you first desensitize Tucker to hands and then counter-condition him.

I do not have any personal information to share on Dr.Meyer but she is listed on the AVSAB site so I do feel that it will probably be money well spent. There are many good R+ trainers in MD and I would be happy to point you toward them if you like.

Good luck!

@jinxed_1980:

Beau has decided to take things out of the garbage in protest of being gated in the kitchen. The wierd thing is it is only in protest, he doesnt eat anything he just takes it out of the garbage usually the diapers and strategically places articles around the kitchen.

Dogs don't do things "in protest". He is probably bored and just finding a way to entertain himself. That or he has learned that this behavior gets a reaction from you. Dogs are natural scavengers so he is only doing what dogs do. I'm surprised he doesn't eat it. Mine are inveterate trash hounds. Just get a good covered can so he cannot do this.

Another thing he does is when he gets seperated from me he poops… He could have just went outside and did his business but if i leave for the gas station he will find the energy to realease another present for me on the kitchen floor.

You might need to do a little remedial alone training. Sounds like it might be nervous deification. That or he learned not to poop in front of you, and is waiting for you to leave.

I hate crating him and i dont think he likes it either, and i feel like a bad mommy. He screams and crys if i crate him up and i can hear him half way down the block when i come home from the gas station, so yeah thats a no go.

This tells you he is not adequately crate trained, as others have said. Start from ground 0. Make the crate a super neat place where great things happen. Start by delivering rewards whenever he approaches it. Work up to him going inside, then inside with the door swung closed, then clipped, then inside door locked and he stays there a few seconds, etc.

Also he wont be a good boy on the leash. I dont know how many dogs i have leash trained ( i have worked at kennels and doggy day cares and a vet) i know i know how to leash train a dog… Beau aint havin it. He even gives me the dirty eye when i correct him or suddenly change directions to get him to pay attention.

The methods you're using are older, less effective ways of loose lead training. I suggest you get a Sense-ation harness or a Wonder Walker and sign up for classes with a good, positive reinforcement based trainer who can walk you through a good, fun way of teaching your boy to walk politely on lead.

Good luck

I'm glad to hear Trent's problems are manageable and treatable. I do have a couple of suggestions to help keep him and you happy:

A Sensation Harness is great for walking - it won't put any pressure on his back or neck
A Molecule Ball or other "work to eat" puzzle for his meals
stuffed Kongs
Any puzzle toy that won't require neck strength to dissect.

Keeping a least one or two of his natural drives engaged will help keep him (and you) from going totally bonkers whilst on crate rest. My oldest boy has some disc problems and we used to do warm water massage and swim therapy. It helped greatly.

-Andrea