Thanks Tanza :).
Well you can see that I didnt do my homework on this disease BEFORE I posted my question ⭕o.
(Says this, then runs off to commence my edumacation for the day. Topic is… H.A. :))
PPM Testing Question…
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I have been thinking about this question long and hard lately, and I am just looking for some input, from knowledgeable breeders, please…
Correct me if I am wrong, but, PPM is mostly seen, when pups are young. As the dog grows up, often the PPM goes away, either completely, or at least significantly.
My thoughts on this, is that pups need to be checked, prior to placement in their new homes, i.e. at 6-10 weeks. By doing it at this young age, we are getting an acurate diagnosis. If the dog isnt done till, say 2 yrs, and that dog gets a clear reading, is that truely an accurate assessment/diagnosis ??? Because that particular dog wasnt tested as a young pup, can we really say that he is PPM clear ??? Surely a dog that is pronounced/ advertised, as PPM clear, needs to be tested at this young age, not as an older dog ???
Please dont flame me, Im just trying to get my head around this PPM diagnosis, whether the testing is done, at say 10 weeks, v's 18 months
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It is true that if a breeder is not testing their puppies before placement then they do not know what the puppy's PPM status is. When I took my first litter in for their eye exams, I was told by the vet opthamologist that my girl Rio had only a single strand of iris to iris PPM in one eye and if I had waited even another week, it probably wouldn't be there. She has CERF'd clear at all of her adult exams. I like to have the information about the puppies PPM status, it is more information for me to use in breeding decisions. I know that not everyone does this because they don't feel the minor stranding that will most likely disappear by the time a dog is an adult should be that big of a consideration.
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Thanks for the input Ivoss…
Just a question for you though... If that one strand was there, and it was documented, should Rio be CERF'd ??? What age was she when the single strand was found ??? Perhaps I havent looked into the full requirements of a dog being CERF'd though
I can understand why some people dont bother with it, cos, as we know most strands will go away, without having an adverse effect on the puppies. BUT, (and here is the dilemma I have...), those pups with minor PPM being bred to other pups with minor PPM, will soon produce pups with more and more PPM. Is that right ??? Maybe I am understanding the disease incorrectly... I would presume, that over the generations, this "minor PPM', suddenly is a much bigger issue, perhaps even causing pups to be blind. Now suddenly we have another problem affecting our gorgeous breed. It is something that we have inadvertantly bred INTO our dogs... Am I making sense ??? My mind is racing ahead of my fingers :D.
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Just a question for you though… If that one strand was there, and it was documented, should Rio be CERF'd ??? What age was she when the single strand was found ??? Perhaps I havent looked into the full requirements of a dog being CERF'd though
Dogs get a CERF number if all they have is Iris to Iris PPM. Rio has a CERF number from her exam at 10 weeks old. She does have two entries in the CERF database so you can see that she had the iris to iris PPM at her first exam. She will be getting an exam sometime this summer. http://ixodes.cvm.uiuc.edu:82/Search/Results.aspx
CERF began allowing iris to iris PPM on the condition that if they saw an increase in PPM they would return to disallowing it. I am not sure how many years at has been but I think getting close to 10 years and they have not reported that there is an increase in the severity of PPM seen in the breed.
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Thank you again, Ivoss…
Now I am far more informed about the CERF testing requirements. Thanks for the explantion. It makes more sense to me now. That is really interesting about how they let the PPM in, but would disallow it, if they find it increasing. That is great :).
So is it a requirement for registered, ethical breeders to test their puppies before they leave for their new homes, or is it up to the breeder ??? If it is up to the breeder, then if a lot of people arent getting it done, or if they are doing it after 12 months, 2 yrs etc,etc, then are the CERF results really accurate ??? Unless everyone does it before pups leave the breeder, then really how accurate is the results on CERF ??? I guess what I am saying, is, cos this is a disease that actually improves with age, then I think EVERYBODY should be testing prior to the pups leaving the breeder...
Oh Dog, Im getting more and more oppinionated, arent I
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In the US there is no health testing that is required to be done. All health testing is up to the breeder.
Though PPM does get better with age, dogs with more severe forms of PPM will have visible signs of it at later ages. It is something that as a breeder you have to be aware of and ask when testing was done. At this point in time there are still many breeders who are not submitting the CERF forms to be published in the public database.
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Ok, I have had a bit of a look at the CERF site, and now I just have more questions :D.
Ok, with this sort of an eye examination result, would the following dog be CERF'd ??? "Iris to iris and iris to cornea ppm in both eyes."… Im thinking no ???
What about this one ??? "Very small PPM remnant in both eyes". This one hasnt stated where it is, but I still think it would be CERF'd ???
Also it only list 3 Aussie Opthalmologists that can do the CERF accreditation, is that correct ???
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I don't know about the Aussie Opthamologist thing but I can make an attempt to answer the other questions.
Dog 1: Iris to Iris and Iris to Cornea would not be able to CERF because of the Iris to Cornea PPM. Only Iris to Iris is allowed.
Dog 2: Very small PPM remnant in both eyes. With out knowing the type of PPM it is impossible to say whether this dog would CERF. PPM can be classified as Iris to Iris (the only type that CERFs), Iris to Lens, Iris to Cornea, and Iris Sheets so it is important to know the type of PPM.
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IMHO I wish we did have more compulsory testing. In light of that "delightful" video, that we all know and love, re the breeding of purebred dogs… I think we owe it to ourselves, and more importantly to our dogs, to attempt to do ALL that we are able in order to make the correct decisions in our breedings, so we are able to produce the healthiest puppies, for both pet and/or, show or performance dogs...
I do agree that dogs with severe forms of PPM, will be seen as an adult. I also know that, this is only one area of consideration, in choosing a sire/dam/puppy purchase... It has just been bugging me... I have had so many genetic problems with my ACD's, I think I have become a bit of a "Testing Nazi", with the B's. I just so badly want to do the right thing by/for them
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I don't know about the Aussie Opthamologist thing but I can make an attempt to answer the other questions.
Dog 1: Iris to Iris and Iris to Cornea would not be able to CERF because of the Iris to Cornea PPM. Only Iris to Iris is allowed.
Dog 2: Very small PPM remnant in both eyes. With out knowing the type of PPM it is impossible to say whether this dog would CERF. PPM can be classified as Iris to Iris (the only type that CERFs), Iris to Lens, Iris to Cornea, and Iris Sheets so it is important to know the type of PPM.
Gee, I wish I could just pick up the phone and talk to you, It would be so much easier :D:D:D
I was right in thinking dog 1 wouldnt CERF, I thought as much… Shame...
Interesting about dog 2, but, I understand. This dog would need to be done again, BUT, as it was done at 6 weeksish, and is now nearly 2 yrs, I guess the results could now come back, as clear for PPM, cos they were only very small remnants to begin with ??? They could be long gone now. In my mind it could be a "false positive/clear". Would the examination now, be able to tell where the PPM was, in the 6 weekish examination ???
So many q's, sorry, but, I am really appreciating the time you have given to answering me, Ivoss, thanks...
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Just slightly going off topic, here…
If I was to take my 2 to an Opthalmologist, (In Tassie, we only have the luxury of one Opthal coming over every 3 months to do whatever needs to be done :rolleyes::rolleyes:), exactly which tests should I ask for, I know PRA, coloboma, PPM, but, are there any others ???
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On the CERF forms the opthamologist is required to mark where the PPM was found. Is the quote you gave from the eye exam report or is it a owner/breeder summary of the report?
Depending on the size of the remnant and the type of attachment you might have some sign of it in the adult. Not all strands even minor ones will reabsorb so they may even still be there.
The most difficult thing as a breeder is to juggle all the health concerns along with temperament, longevity, performance ability, and conformation.
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If you go to my website and email me privately, I can email you a scan of the CERF form so you can see what they normally look for.
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Both dog 1 and 2, I have copied, word for word from the eye examination report. On dog 2 there was more written, but I have been told that it is of no consequence…
Thats interesting that the remnant might still be able to be found on dog 2.
I couldnt agree with you more, this breeding is such a difficult thing to get 100% right. All you can do is research, learn and most importantly LISTEN... Then keep your fingers crossed, that Mother Nature doesnt decide to play a joke with your litter ;);). Oh boy, dont I know about that with the ACD's, she really wasnt kind to me
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Just sent you an email… Thanks :).
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My OJ had excessive PPM to the point you could see with the naked eye, in his litter, he had two that had total sheeting over one eye and the other had excessive PPM as he did. So he would have never CERF'ed. And PPM runs in his pedigree. This was one of the reasons he was never bred. However, all that said if this was the only reason that I decided not to use him, things might have been different. As breeders not everything is going to be perfect. In the end we all need to decide what we can and can not live with in doing a breeding.
And I also agree, the more information you have to begin with, the better informed decision you can make for breeding. Not everyone is going to think the same on what is or is not important…
