How we got through the first years of "whacko dog" and some tips for you

  • Harold, I was remiss not to acknowledge your sticking it out and caring for the dog. That is, as others pointed out, wonderful. You also went from really awful training (yelling is not good for any breed) to adjusting to what the dog needs... many people don't have the ability to do that. You tried to understand what he needed, what he responded to, and care for his needs. I deleted my post because it was truly harsh and uncalled for.

    Please do not compare autism to animal behaviors. What you have isn't at all like autism. You have a very fearful and reactive dog. Autism is not some strict set of behaviors, and people with autism do not deserve to be treated like they cannot understand or have emotions. We could very well have autistic members here, and most certainly have members with children or family with autism.

    Allowing the dog to eat what limited food you have allowed is going to kill him. It is utterly unhealthy. In all situations, someone gets trained. It's good he trained you to stop yelling. Not good he's trained you to give him such a horrific diet. I admit to often allowing my dogs to have leeway about a lot of things... so yes 🙂 I sometimes get trained. But other things you have to stand firm on. Healthy nutrition is one of them.

    Tea is toxic to dogs. Small amounts aren't dangerous, but why give a little of what it not good.

    For some really positive training, and easy to understand, obedience lessons are on the left, and problem areas on the right.

    I have a dog that gets diarrhea no matter how little of raw that I feed, and thus far, no research actually supports raw as being better for dogs than quality cooked. But I have used Stella's for dogs and most of them love it. If that doesn't work, pick a good quality kibble, add a little warm water, and do tough love. Put the food down... in 15 minutes put it up. Evening, try again. No snacks, no giving in. Most dogs will not starve themselves to death. Obviously if after 3 or 4 days your dog is eating NOTHING, you may have to try adding something to it. You could put a spoon of peanut butter in hot water and soak the kibble, or grind up a small piece of the duck jerky, soak it then mix with the kibble.

  • @harold said in How we got through the first years of "whacko dog" and some tips for you:

    Thank you for sticking with your pup.... however, many of the things that you describe can be for any pup, not just a Basenji. If you got your pup from a responsible breeder I would think you would not have had many of these issues? Not sure why you are thinking this is a Basenji? Can you post pictures? And I would further guess that he was not 8wks old with the development you are describing. Sounds like he was way younger than that... especially since he came from a craigslist advertisement. Responsible breeders do not sell puppies on craigslist

  • Thanks everyone for the replies: first let me say that we tried every food training trick in the book. Putting food down for approx: 15 to 20 minutes and the picking it up if he hadn't touched it. He would not eat the food. Not even after 3 days. So after a few times doing that and trying every dog food we could find from raw meat to cooked meat to the highest priced dog food to the cheapest we could not get Harry to eat anything except what I mentioned in my post. This was over a period of months.He will go for days and not eat "anything "put before him. Finally we gave in. Yes I know it sounds crazy and irresponsible but we have wasted more food on Harry than we have bought for our own consumption.Harry is not consistent in what he decides to eat. He might decide to eat "A" 3 days in a row and then on the fourth day, he won't go near it. Then he will eat "B" and do that for a day and not again for 3 weeks. Then "A" again for a day and then "C" and the nothing tickles his fancy. Believe me we have done everything but force food down his throat. Also, we never yelled at Harry because of him pooping in the house or anything. What I was trying to say is he will go into these ...I don't know what to call them...fits or something where he will sit down and look at a specific spot on the wall and just stare and nothing affects him. You can scream t the top of your lungs, bang cymbals right next to his head, but he doesn't hear you or see you. It is as though he is not there. This will go on for about 3 to 5 minutes and then "boop" he just snaps out of it and goes about his business as though nothing happened. Which is also why I mentioned autism which is recognized in dogs, as he exhibits many traits such as the one above, not responding to his name, not wanting to cuddle, has to have things orderly like food and toys, and much more strange behavior. Please do not feel I am denigrating anyone with autism. Now I am pushing 60 years old and I have owned dogs all of my life. All of my dogs have been well trained by me and all have had long lives. Harry is the weirdest, strangest, craziest, goofiest dog I have ever had the pleasure of living with. And..he loves taking baths...or at least he is very cool letting me bath him and doesn't give me a hard time. But try to clip his nails and he will rip through the muzzle to bite your face. Anyway.... thanks all for the tips. I will look up the Stellas and see if he will try it.

  • @harold Your Harry has Separation Anxiety. That is part of the Breed profile. RAW food is bad for Dogs because they are Omnivores. Unless you raise your own Bovine and slaughter it yourself the Flesh from those animals is full of Steroids to make them grow fatter. When my little girl had Cancer at the age of 12 I had to Tumor removed and fed her Vegetarian Dog Food. She ate everything except Raisins and Milk Chocolate. She knew not to eat that stuff. I had her until she was 16 years old. Kudos for getting through it all!

  • @harold said in How we got through the first years of "whacko dog" and some tips for you:

    autism which is recognized in dogs

    Harold, it isn't recognized in dogs. It is theorized, but predominately find it is other issues, bad training, fear, anxiety, OCD etc.

    Nothing you described in your dog doesn't fit other issues. (( So to boil it down: he chewed everything except food. he pooped everywhere except outside. he was standoffish. could not hug him. scared of everything. acted autistic. )) He acted like a totally untrained, fearful, unsocialized puppy. Your home-diagnosis of "autistic" when you have almost no background in canine evaluation and behaviorism doesn't equal your dog really being autistic.

    Your dog staring is more like a seizure, btw.

    If your choice is to feed food that is unhealthy. But you could also soak kibble and spoon feed him. It isn't hard, taked 3 or 4 mins to give 10 spoons of mushed dog food. Do twice a day. Or ask the vet for appetite stimulants so he eats. For me, I couldn't bear to give my dog junk that would eventually affect his health.

  • This post is deleted!

  • @debradownsouth I too do research and dogs are Omnivores. As I said unless you raise the Bovine yourself and slaughter it yourself then there are not any steroids or antibiotics in the Flesh. Have you not seen that the overuse of antibiotics due to use in Farm Animals is causing a massive problem because we are becoming Immune to these Drugs. The FDA has a Rule about using antibiotics to feed Livestock but they made it VOLUNTARY.

    I would not feed Raw anything for that reason. Farmed Salmon us not good because investigations have shown Algae Blooms which is a sign of improper maintenance of the Tanks.

    Most of the women in my family are Nurses. I took the route my late Father did. I went to Law School at NYU. I follow the USDA and the DOI because I despise what they are doing to our Animals. USDA has scrubbed its site so there is not a single reference to Horses being Slaughtered in Mexico or Canada. How you could be so lax as to advise feeding RAW Meat is beyond me.

  • Harry's attitude to his food - first eating and then refusing is very similar to my Basenji who has kidney failure - I'm not saying that he has actual kidney disease but other health matters could cause him to be fussy. Have you consulted your vet about his eating habits? I appreciate that you might have already done this and there is no health problem. I hope not anyway.

  • @antigone I note what you say about feeding Basenjis raw and beg to differ. Obviously to each his own and if you believe that meat is dangerous that is your choice. Being omnivores certainly doesn't preclude them from eating their meat raw. I 'm sure that Debra like me is experienced in giving her Basenji raw meat.
    I've owned and bred Basenjis for more than 40 years and fostered them for many, many more. I have always fed them a raw diet (including raw eggs)and have had very few health problems. I am careful to research what I buy. Being a natural primitive breed I am of the strong opinion that they should be fed naturally.
    I'm concerned that people who read what you post take it as fact and feel extremely worried and guilty.

  • my vet has advised the starve until he eats diet which was tried...and why he eats what he eats now. he will not eat if you attempt to force food in his mouth...which has been tried also.

    From petmd:
    Has Autism been Diagnosed in Dogs?
    As early as 1966, veterinarians were talking about the occurrence of autism-like symptoms in dogs. More recently, a presentation at the 2015 American College of Veterinary Behaviorists reported on investigations into tail chasing behavior in Bull Terriers and a possible link to autism

    and please stop talking about autism like it is something that shouldn't be spoken of in public. there is nothing wrong with me saying i think my dog has autism. That is like me not being able to talk about my dog being blind because there might be a sight impaired person reading the Basenji Forum. There is actually no definitive laboratory tests to prove someone (a human or dog) has autism but rather it is through a subjective diagnosis is made based on the examination of behavioral characteristics. They are people like every other people. They just have autism No, I am not saying dogs and people are the same, but the behavioral characteristics can be looked at to compare and see if the dog exhibits signs of autism and not just bad training and fear. As I have stated earlier, I have been a dog owner since I was a child and am now almost 60 years old. Harry is the only dog that I have not been able to train within 30 days. He has been with us 4 years and still exhibits the same traits he did when we first got him except for he has chilled a bit, but the things he does are just too strange. After 4 years you think he would become normalized to my wife's and my routine. I'm just sayin!

  • @harold said in How we got through the first years of "whacko dog" and some tips for you:

    my vet has advised the starve until he eats diet which was tried...and why he eats what he eats now. he will not eat if you attempt to force food in his mouth...which has been tried also.

    You need a new vet.

    From petmd: blah blah blah... <

    As I said, talked about, not diagnosed, period. Not one single study, not one authoritative research calling it "autism". It's a response to people saying "they act like"... and THEN vets/behaviorists pointing out hat the behaviors are better defined as OCD and other issues. You aren't a behaviorist, so lumping your dogs behavior into "autistic" with severe behavior issues is derogatory... that kind of labeling is something the Autistic groups have tried to fight for a very long time. It is derogatory and dehumanizing.

    and please stop talking about autism like it is something that shouldn't be spoken of in public.<

    There is nothing wrong with talking about autism. There is something wrong with someone taking bad behaviors in a dog and calling them autistic. Fighting stereotypes is the opposite of what you did. But go ahead,

    As I have stated earlier, I have been a dog owner since I was a child and am now almost 60 years old. Harry is the only dog that I have not been able to train within 30 days. <

    Actually, you said you went 15 years with no dog, just your wife's bird. You also talked about yelling at the dog. ( You couldn't yell or scream or raise your voice at him.) You also said you got a dog from craig's list ... and took a mixed dog as a chihuahua. IF you had taken that poor baby to a vet immediately, they'd have known if 8 weeks old or, as you probably guessed right, considerably younger. So owning dogs can be like chewing gum, the more you do it doesn't necessarily confer any type of expertise or even much common sense. Who knows how a person with real experience may have made the dog much more secure, using calming signals, widening exposure to new things. You can't fix a fearful temperament, but a knowledgeable dog owner can improve it tremendously.

    Biting isn't uncommon with puppies taken from their litter too young. Fearful behavior is generally genetic. Not knowing how to train a dog who is fearful often feeds into their fears and makes them worse. But whatever.

  • @antigone

    LOL so now you are a lawyer? Okay then. That makes you an expert on what? Nothing to do with dogs.

    Even if you feed what you grow, rain and pollution makes it also contaminated. Feed what you want, but calling me "lax" about my food choices for my dogs, or other people their feeding choice, is uncalled for and says far more about your own insecurities than anything.

    Raw isn't proven to be any better than cooked, but it also isn't poison.

    And in case you missed it, you keep saying dogs are omnivores. First, that means meat and plant, not just plant.

    Even as an "omnivore", experts always said more on meat eating end. And for several years now, actual experts debate if they are even omnivores.

  • Still want to know why you say this is a Basenji? 4lb at 8 wks is NOT normal for a Basenji pup.

  • In the early days in the UK many breeders (certainly not all) tried to train Basenjis as they would have other dogs in those days. This did indeed lead to behavioural problems and Basenjis were believed to be an aggressive breed because of developed traits. I have heard this repeated so many times when referring to early imports. It wasn't really true. Have you consulted a behaviourist well versed in knowledge of Basenjis? She/he could possibly help you with Harry's behaviours. Possibly you are happy with him as you obviously have learnt to live satisfactorily with him so then please ignore my suggestion.
    Another suggestion about his eating - have you tried leaving him without food once a week on a regular basis? This is quite normal practice amongst natural feeding advocates.

  • @debradownsouth I have never claimed to be an expert at anything. As I have said I would only feed RAW Meat if I bred and raised the animal and slaughtered it myself. If you check out the PEW Research site this week they are discussing the overuse of Antibiotics in Livestock. There are other articles about the use of Steroids in Livestock.

    Yes, I know what an Omnivore is and before my Dog got Cancer at the age of 12 I fed her IAMS both canned and dry. She got the Vegetarian Dog food after she had the Cancer and she lived for 4 more years.

    My point is that the crap they are feeding the Livestock is putting Human Health at risk. We are becoming immune to Antibiotics and Superbugs such as MERSA is not easily cured. My Uncle got that at the Gym where he works out (it thrives in water) and he was on a Pic Line for 3 Months and then they amputated his big toe.

    THAT is the main reason I would not feed Raw anything to my Dog. Also, nobody can claim to be an expert at anything. I find it odd that the Alpha Females of this forum toss that word around so frequently. Experience is one thing but Expertise is another thing entirely. Expertise is not just eons of experience but a quantifiable claim.

  • @patty As I have said I would only feed my Canines, Lupines or Felines RAW anything if, and only if, I raised the animal myself and slaughtered it myself. Yes, you can raise a Bovine and when it is mature you can have it slaughtered professionally. There is just too much crap that goes into the Livestock diet that now Humans are becoming immune to Antibiotics. Steroids are causing 'Precocious Puberty' in little girls.

    Once again Experience is one thing and Expertise is another. I do not claim to be an Expert at anything. Expertise is quantifiable and eons of Experience does not qualify anyone to call themselves an expert. In some cases years of experience makes us hold on to the same ideas and never grow.

    Careful sourcing of RAW anything is required. Basenjis are an Ancient Breed and they are Hounds and they will eat ANYTHING. There can be no question that Dogs and Wolves are omnivores, and these links to dubious places does not prove otherwise. What have you pulled out of your Dogs' mouths in the 40+ years you have been breeding them? Plenty of stuff that could harm them if they ingested it.

    Experience can be respected to a point. Different Cultures - even in the same Country - impacts how we take care of our Animals.

    Continued good luck with Breeding these lovely little homewreckers! Since you have so much experience you should author a Book. Peer-reviewed Books that are Published shows expertise.

  • @antigone
    Experts are people with degrees doing research and proving their ideas.
    Experience counts if done repeatedly with good results, it doesn't make it fact/science/applicable to others.

    And here you go with "alpha females". done. removing all comments to you. Disruptive to forum, waste of energy.

  • @debradownsouth You are so dominant that people here are afraid to post what they are thinking due to your attitude. It is sad that ONE person who does not OWN this forum can create a climate that is so toxic to new Dog owners that they are afraid to speak as they fear humiliation by you.

    Think about it. I am not an Expert at anything as I have stated before. I gave the definition of 'Expert' which you clearly disliked because you do not meet the Criterion of an 'Expert'.

    As I have said in the past we are always disagreeing about something or other and to want to not read what I say is your choice. But to remove my Posts is a Violation of my First Amendment Rights. I have been correct about many things and have stated that feeding raw meat to any Animal is dangerous unless you know for sure that the animal has not had Antibiotics and Steroids. Did you bother to read the Pew Research Center about Antibiotic and Steroid use in Livestock?

  • @antigone
    Abusive attack.
    Paranoid nonsense about me removing your posts and first amendment. Try rereading, slowly. I removed mine, not yours.

    Then take a look at your posts battering your opinion over and over and over, much nonsense, calling people names. Get over yourself.

  • @antigone The original posts gave opinions that not everybody agrees with and we are trying to help him with experience and knowledge of Basenjis. You disagree with some of us and Harold must be totally confused - however, he has found a way to live with Harry which is satisfactory for him.
    Debra is an experienced and devoted Basenji owner and naturally was worried about the dog. There is no need to attack her for that surely?
    No why should I write a book? - for one thing, I don't have the time and for another, there are plenty of good books about Basenjis already.
    You have a bee in your bonnet it seems about raw meat. However, there is no need to scare people with your opinion. I do advocate raw feeding but also there are some good kibbles already - it seems that a new feed company starts up regularly so there is obviously plenty of choices. Even the better ones may contain premix vitamins which are mainly sourced from China which doesn't exactly have a good record on producing dog foods.
    It is certainly untrue that Basenjis will eat anything and most of the rubbish goes through anyway, I can rely on mine not to eat anything that is poisonous to them - they are discerning in many ways. Harry has proved that they don't eat just anything too!
    Speaking of crap - have you seen the amount of excrement that a dog fed on kibble generates?!!
    I'm sure you speak out because you love dogs but 'methinks you protest too much'.
    I have never claimed to be an expert but I do have some knowledge about Basenjis. However, I strongly believe that one can always learn from other people - no matter how much knowledge a person has there is always more to learn. I no longer breed as I stopped when I realised that I'm too old to do so.
    This is normally a friendly forum and I hope Harry hasn't been put off because of your antagonism.
    Please let's agree to differ?

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