Raw food continued

[nomrbddgs]

Hey, we are back to a new thread. Please tell me about your research gbroxon. I am really interested, as I have to find something Zina can eat-without grains and fillers and that is nutritionally sound-no flax seed either! Thanks,

[gbroxon]

If you're talking about a kibble, the one I feed, very occasionally, is called Great Life, it is grain and potato free, and it is a wholistic kibble covered with a freeze-dried raw coating. It does, however, contain flaxseed. I've taken a quick look at Orijen, and it looks like one I'd definitely consider feeding. Both Orijen and Great Life have more veggies/fruit than I'd like, but since I only feed Great Life occasionally, I'm okay with it.

I pretty much summed up my raw food beliefs in the other thread, but if you have specific questions, I'd be happy to answer them to the best of my ability (and in my opinion). I won't offer anything but my opinion, because I feel a dog is best served by their owner doing their own research and not relying on something somebody stated as fact.

The only things I can think to add at this point is I give Magnum a raw egg (I don't buy into the excessive raw-egg biotin theory, although I do check for new info from time to time), probably weekly, without the shell (but just because he won't eat it, I'd love for him to develop a taste for eggshells), and I do supplement with salmon oil because I believe that there are way too many O6's in the food humans and dogs eat, and I hope to bring it more in balance with the O3's in the oil.

I've got some errands to run, but I'll be back later.

[nomrbddgs]

Well, here's the issue I have. I had been working with someone who was really focused on the raw, but wouldn't listen to the problems with the dog. She is allergic. To a lot of things. I believe she's probably allergic to lettuce for one thing. Flax seed is another grain. Zina's father is allergic to chicken. So, there may be that factor. If, she's allergic to chicken, is she allergic to eggs?? I did try the omega 3 oils as well. THIS is why I'd like to hear about your research. Tell me more about the veggie aspect. I believe most dogs can and should have them. But I would really like to hear, specifically, why you don't believe in lots of fruits and veggies. I know we got uptight about it a few months ago, but I need to hear different aspects. If anyone would like to jump in with comments, suggestions, etc, please do so. Yes, it might get heated, but I need to hear opinions to be able to help Zina. She has, I figure another 3-5 years of her life left, I'd like to try to make it one where she is not scratching herself to death.

Sorry if I put this in the wrong place everyone!

[gbroxon]

You know I never considered that the flaxseed referred to in the ingredient list was the grain itself, I always assumed it was the oil (and since it comes from the grain, is it still considered a grain?). Don't see how they can advertise it as grain-free if it's not, but… That gives me more to research!

Personally, I believe dogs are carnivores, maybe not obligate carnivores (being, IMO, an opportunistic scavenger), but carnivores just the same. I think a dog can live on just about anything, he just lives more healthily and thrives more readily on a meat/bones/organs diet. I believe he gets all the nutrients he needs to be healthy and thrive from those things. His teeth/mouth are not made to grind food (which is necessary for plant cellulose breakdown–look at the difference in teeth between dogs and omnivores or herbivores) and his digestive system is not meant for long digestive periods, which veggies/fruits in their raw state (swallowed down in chunks, rather than finely chewed) would require for nutrient absorption.

There is a lot of debate about this, as I'm sure you'll find out if you start reading about raw diets. I've fallen on the side of no veggies/fruits as staples of the diet. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they'll hurt a dog, and I think even wolves might eat fruits/veggies now and then if they're readily available or if they're starving.

Now I know there are a lot of dogs that love their veggies and fruits. My dog will not touch any fruit or vegetable I've ever offered him, so I guess I'm lucky that I've decided fruits and vegetables are unnecessary for optimal health, as I'd have a heckuva time getting him to eat them. He will, grudgingly and if he's really hungry, eat baby food veggies, but he'll leave a piece of apple untouched forever. Believe me, I've tried just about everything, because I would love to use them as training treats.

[nomrbddgs]

Well, I looked at the flax seed thing like this: the casing has a toxic component. It's fine for most if it's ground. It grows on a plant much like Oats as far as I can tell. So, to me, after looking at it and where the experts place it in the food chain, it's a grain! The same with the eggs…it comes from a chicken. Will it give the same allergic reaction that chicken meat, broth would? And the veggies.

I don't necessarily believe that the veggies should be a staple. Especially as Zina did fine before I introduced the vetggies and fruit. BUT, I believe that they do have a nutritional component. Particularily fiber. When Zina had ear problems, the woman told me to mix Lavender oil and olive oil and put it in her ear. Excuse me, but isn't lavender a weed? Would that not give a further reaction? Wolves in the wild do eat fruits and veggies-even bark from the trees. If I leave compost outside, the coyotes will eat it.

Which brings me back to this, what EXACTLY do you feed your dog and in what percentages. What kinds of meats? How often? I do know this is your opinion, but that is what I am trying to gather-more info. I'm willing to try almost anything at this point as I have tried different methods of kibble, raw, mixed. She will start out great and then go downhill.

As for feeding yours fruits-especially apple, have you tried putting Peanut Butter on it to start? Once he acquires a taste, it may be different. Sounds like he doesn't like the first bite which is probably a different texture on his teeth than he is used to.

[lvoss]

Arlene, is there a place you can get green tripe? The stuff smells foul but does offer a good source of nutrients for raw fed dogs and is the way many carnivores get their veggies and greens.

This company is at many of our shows and I have used their freeze dried chicken hearts as bait. My dogs absolutely love them.

They also sell a variety of raw products, http://www.healthypetdiet.com

[nomrbddgs]

Yes, I've tried green tripe. Here's the question I have with that. Since it's the first stomach, what percentage, if any, are grains left in the stomach. I asked, but didn't get a 'real' answer. Basically I was told not to worry about it. But, if she's allergic to grains, if it's in the first stomach, would she get a reaction out of it? I did give it to her, along with all the mixtures so I'm trying to pinpoint if anybody knows the nutrient value of being on a basic diet of only meat and organs and what types of meat and organs. I guess this is the question I've been trying to think of all along.

She's allergic to grains, her father is allergic to chicken. What basic food can I give her, in what proportions and percentages to start off an elimination diet whereby she will get all her nutrients?

This is kind of perplexing isn't it. I seem to be limiting more and more, but am unsure of where to go from here. At least she's happy and bouncy on the Origen and she's gained some weight. When she was on the raw, she would just lay around and mope and lost weight. She seemed depressed. It's just that she's sooooo itchy!

Comments, questions, anything?? But I will check out the site Lisa, thanks!

[lvoss]

You absolutely must have bone not just meat and organs in order to have the right balance of calcium to phosphorous. Actually, the biggest problems seen from homemade raw diets or homemade diets in general is that their calcium to phosphorous ratios are not correct and over time cause problems for the dog.

The real difference with the grains in tripe vs grains in other food is that, in tripe, it has been altered by the digestion process. That chemical alteration can make a difference in whether a dog will react or not.

[gbroxon]

@nomrbddgs:

Well, I looked at the flax seed thing like this: the casing has a toxic component. It's fine for most if it's ground. It grows on a plant much like Oats as far as I can tell. So, to me, after looking at it and where the experts place it in the food chain, it's a grain! The same with the eggs…it comes from a chicken. Will it give the same allergic reaction that chicken meat, broth would? And the veggies.

I don't necessarily believe that the veggies should be a staple. Especially as Zina did fine before I introduced the vetggies and fruit. BUT, I believe that they do have a nutritional component. Particularily fiber. When Zina had ear problems, the woman told me to mix Lavender oil and olive oil and put it in her ear. Excuse me, but isn't lavender a weed? Would that not give a further reaction? Wolves in the wild do eat fruits and veggies-even bark from the trees. If I leave compost outside, the coyotes will eat it.

Which brings me back to this, what EXACTLY do you feed your dog and in what percentages. What kinds of meats? How often? I do know this is your opinion, but that is what I am trying to gather-more info. I'm willing to try almost anything at this point as I have tried different methods of kibble, raw, mixed. She will start out great and then go downhill.

As for feeding yours fruits-especially apple, have you tried putting Peanut Butter on it to start? Once he acquires a taste, it may be different. Sounds like he doesn't like the first bite which is probably a different texture on his teeth than he is used to.

I feed a modified prey-model raw diet. I feed 80% meat/10% organs/10% bones, over time. I feed 2-3% of Magnum's ideal body weight, depending on how he's looking. It's usually about 1/2-pound a day. I feed chicken, turkey, lamb, beef/beef organs, venison, tripe, eggs, fish. I'm open to feeding other meats, if I can find them at reasonable prices (like buffalo, duck, veal, elk). Lots of people feed pork, but I don't, it doesn't agree with Magnum's tummy.

He's generally fed twice a day, once in the morning and once in the early evening. This morning he got about 2 ounces of ground chicken/frames and 2 ounces of ground beef/beef organs spritzed with some salmon oil. I feed ground food fairly often, that's why I said above that I feed a "modified" prey-model raw diet. I don't feel that feeding a big chunk meat offers any more nutritional benefit than feeding that same chunk of meat ground. Big chunks of meat, which I feed less frequently, do provide a workout/distraction and teeth-cleaning benefits.

I don't worry about fiber, as it is not an essential nutrient in a healthy dog's diet. I might reconsider if Magnum started having issues with, say, frequent diarrhea or constipation.

Wolves and coyotes may eat the things you mention if they can't find anything else and they're hungry, but from what I've read, they will not eat them if meat is available. I've also read that when wolves kill a ruminant, they will shake the stomach contents out before consuming the stomch.

I have tried putting peanut butter on fruit a number of times (I've even tried cream cheese and yogurt), Magnum licks off the "good stuff" and leaves the fruit, every time. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

[DiegosMom]

gbroxon- I have a question for you. I saw in the other post about feeding raw you said you pay about $1/lb. Do you buy it from a local butcher? What do you ask for? I am thinking about doing raw, and have a lot of research to do, but i'm starting from square one.

[Tayda_Lenny]

I just wanted to add in my 2 cents on raw feeding. I fed Tayda and Lenny raw for about a year. Tayda was recently diagnosed with Fanconi and when I looked back at her blood work it seems from her venous blood gas panel her BUN and Creatinine levels have been elevated since over a year ago (she was NOT spillin sugar then) … I sent all of her results to Dr. Gonto and his contention is that the exceedingly high levels of protein in a raw diet could be causing her kidneys to be overloaded and consequently she could be on the verge of renal failure...

just wanted to pass that along. Tayda and Lenny always seemed to do really well on raw... clean teeth, no smelly breath, shiny coat, etc etc etc... but now that I'm having to watch Taydas bloodwork and urinanalysis so carefully I'm seeing lots of things I never saw before....

Anyone on raw have unusually high BUN and Creatinine levels? I have switched her to a lower protein diet and I'll see in 2 months if it brings her levels down.

[gbroxon]

@DiegosMom:

gbroxon- I have a question for you. I saw in the other post about feeding raw you said you pay about $1/lb. Do you buy it from a local butcher? What do you ask for? I am thinking about doing raw, and have a lot of research to do, but i'm starting from square one.

I belong to a raw buyers group based here in MN. Magnum's breeder turned us on to the group. We are lucky enough to be able to buy wholesale from a meat wholesaler. The $1/lb. is an average. I've paid more, and I've paid less. I am also lucky that I know a lot of deer hunters who are more than happy to save their scraps for me. I also have friends who give me freezer-burned meat. If you're feeding more than one dog, you have to have an extra freezer. We have an upright freezer about half full of dog food and an extra freezer in the standard-sized fridge in our pole barn for overspill.

[nomrbddgs]

I did buy a grinder-kind of in between a commercial and home use one. It will grind bones. When Zina was on the basic raw, she was on chicken and bone. But there were no organs in it. She was on it for about a month-supposedly to rid her body of toxins. Like I said she did fine at first, but when I started on the mixtures, that's when it went to pot.

I wonder if I start her on one thing with organs and bones, maybe beef? if she would still have a reaction. What do you guys think about this. If she is allergic to chicken, and I'm still unsure about this (I wonder if she's sensitive to it), is she also allergic to other fowl?? The think I worry about is that if I do put her on one type of meat, will she get all her nutritional value? Freezer space isn't a problem, I can always pick up a second hand one fairly cheap, but I do have a 27' one and two small house freezers.

Also, don't forget, this is a boxer. I haven't heard of a case of Fanconi in a boxer myself. If you are on a higher protein diet, your creatinine levels tend to be higher as well. I believe, this is why when you are on the Atkins diet, you still have to watch your intake. And Zina will not live another 5 years, most likely. What I have to do is make her life comfortable now. If she's happy for 3 more years and then I have to put her down, so be it. At least she was happy in the time she spent on this side of the Rainbow Bridge. It's better than the miserable first 7 months she spent. And this was not a breeder problem. The pet people who had her did not listen to the breeder, caused the issue to explode, literally, and the replacement puppy died at 2 1/2 of issues as well.

I can get the meat fairly cheap, as I do have the grinder and the butchers will sell cheaper if they don't have to do anything to the meat. I also have the space, if this does work, to grow some of my own food for them. If I have to go to pork, because she's allergic to chicken, then in 6 months, I can have enough food for a long time. But I want to make sure of what I am doing first. She deserves to be happy.