Question For Basenji Judges…

[saba]

This is something I have been stewing on for months, so bare with me…

I had taken Saba to a Parade, (basically this is a show for new judges to get their hands on the dogs they have just passed in their judges training, both theory and practical. There are no points allocated to the winners, and all Champions must only be entered in a Champion class... Our judges down here in Australia, do their training one group at a time, i.e. Toys, Terriers, Gundog, Hounds, Working, Utility, Non Sporting... Not one breed at a time like you guys do, I think !!!), and later talked to the 2 judges who had examined him. I was talking about how he was in season, and I got a VERY blank look from both the girls :). They thought I was talking about a bitch, for obvious reasons, and couldnt remember judging a basenji bitch of mine... I didnt have Ochre at this time... I then went on to exlain the whole Basenjis seasons 'stuff', both boys and girls. I asked them if they had any of this explained to them at the lecture on B's, and they hadnt :rolleyes::rolleyes: They new nothing of these funny, quirky little issues that our breed posess, nothing at all. I know also question if there is anything told to the trainee judges about Fula Blcks/Tri's, in the colour description, either. I must add here, that it isnt mentioned in the colour description, so I doubt any non Basenji Hound judges, would know about these colours at alll. We have a double show this weekend, and I am going to ask a few of the All Breeds judges, if they know of, or could recognise, a Fula anything !!! I very much doubt it :eek:

So my question to you guys... Do you have the idiosyncracies, mentioned above, of the B's explained to you at your breed lecture ??? Or am I just getting my knickers in a knot over nothing ???

[khanis]

A fula tri is a black, tan and white, therefore it fits into the tri category.
Same with the brindle pointed tri [trindle].
Anyone may argue all they want, but since they possess those colors, they DO fit into that category.
The judge will have to decide for themselves if the demarcation is clear [as asked for in the standard] on the fulas or the trindles.

[kiroja]

I don't know what all goes into the judges' education, nor what this guy has done or known about the breed, but we just had a provisional (new) judge a couple weeks ago and he gave winners dog and reserve winners bitch to trindles. Had no problem accepting the color and knowing what to do with it. And I had no problem with his picks for the day, even though I wasn't part of them. lol The judge we had the day before was also open to all the colors, but I already knew that.

[saba]

@khanis:

A fula tri is a black, tan and white, therefore it fits into the tri category.
Same with the brindle pointed tri [trindle].
Anyone may argue all they want, but since they possess those colors, they DO fit into that category.
The judge will have to decide for themselves if the demarcation is clear [as asked for in the standard] on the fulas or the trindles.

Khanis, I think you may have misunderstood my meaning :). I wasnt saying that these colours are unacceptable, and personally I dont have any problems seeing these dogs in the ring, or being beaten by dogs of these colours…

What I was wondering about, was, do you have these colours described to you as a trainee to the Basenji judging ranks ??? Obviously B people doing their judges training, would of course, recognise, know about, and hopefully accept these colours, but, again, would NON B people learn about these colours, so they can recognise them when presented to them in the ring ???

Our B standard doesnt state ANYTHING about these colours being acceptable, or not

The other thing i was asking in my post, was, are you told about the bitches cycling only once a year, (generally speaking, of course...), the dogs also having their season, obviously to co-incide with the bitches, only being able to collect semen when the boys are in season etc, etc ??? Are your American Breed lecturers teaching these things, cos the educators believe that these aspects of the breed, are important ???

Hope that makes more sense

[saba]

@kiroja:

I don't know what all goes into the judges' education, nor what this guy has done or known about the breed, but we just had a provisional (new) judge a couple weeks ago and he gave winners dog and reserve winners bitch to trindles. Had no problem accepting the color and knowing what to do with it. And I had no problem with his picks for the day, even though I wasn't part of them. lol The judge we had the day before was also open to all the colors, but I already knew that.

That is excellent, obviously no bias there… Here in Tassie we have no Fulas, or Trindles. In fact I dont think there would be very many of any of these colours, Australia wide

[saba]

Any other B judges opinions…..............................................

[khanis]

Since I do my fair share of judges education, yes we do talk about the majority of basenjis cycling only one time a year….
but they are to judge on the day, so I don't see how their cycling comes into play in the show ring.
If they aren't behaving and can't be shown properly, then they can't be seen at their potential...
one cannot expect a judge to see past it.
We have to judge on THAT given day, not what we think might happen on another day.

Our standard indicated 4 primary colors, r/w, b/w, b/t/w, brd/w. Any deviation from the stardard is a fault to the degree at which it deviates.
Some people are going to be a stickler for color, whilst others may be a stickler for movement, heads, etc.

I believe that Diana and I are the only judges currently on the forum.

[kiroja]

I agree that you can't really consider their seasons for showing. Yes it's nice to know, but if they're not behaving then they just aren't going to get a good look. They don't have to show like a robot, but if they're unruly then they don't really deserve the win anyways.

And to add to Kathy's comment, there is no DQ in our breed. So yes judges can decide how important color is to them and consider a trindle a fault to any given extent. But it certainly is no DQ and is a fault like anything else, shoulders, toplines, tailsets, ears, etc. The judge just has to decide how important it is to them compared to everything else, and I would hope that with how we educate them, they would figure out that movement and structure is WAY more important in this working breed. lol And personally I don't think I would really consider it a "fault", but to each his own.

[Borbasuk]

Our Breed Council organises breed seminars in the UK for aspiring judges which they have to pass to progress up the judging lists (I was an assessor at the last one and am a KC approved judge for Basenjis). The colours are definitely gone through thoroughly and we try to have representatives of at least the main four colours, though the brindles and especially blacks are very thin on the ground and Ruby and Bryn have done sterling service as colour reps! At the last seminar there were examples of both regular and barred tris. At the moment we have no recessive blacks in the show ring and rarely do, but the colour is mentioned in the presentation with an explanation of how it tends to change with age. There has not been a trindle shown here to the best of my knowledge so we have yet to tackle that thorny issue. The BC presentation emphasises clear, rich, well-demarcated colours.
Naturally some judges see colour as more of a priority than others. I do try to ensure that there is a b/w at the seminars if at all possible, as many upcoming judges may never have seen one and probably never gone over one.