Looking for an agility basenji? A rally basenji? Or a coursing basenji? Show dog?
Would you like all four in one complete and mature package?
There is a 4 1/2 year old, red and white, male whose owner died unexpectedly earlier this month who has been started in all of the above. I beleive he currently sports 2 RN legs, has his JC, earned BOB in a recent ASFA trial, has been training in Agility and has 5 conformation points.
He is currently with his breeder but will need a home, as will his older kennel mate who I beleive also has a series of titles to her name.
email Chris (the breeder) at: LothlorienBasenjis@gmail.com
Good luck renault1 with your goals/aspirations re: trying your hand at obed/rally and/or agility. It is not rocket scientry. If this dolt can do it, I am almost certain you can too!
Wizard - the webmaster would very much like to have more courses as well, especially the lure coursing one. My understanding - a person was asked over 1 year ago to put something together and nothing has been done, despite repeated "promises" to the contrary. Unless and until the webmaster decides to ask another person (I personally think they should) - that course will remain undone. So it is not a lack of effort on the BCOA webmaster. Sad, but true and one of the downfalls of relying solely on volunteers. I have learned many people talk a good game but when it comes to actually participating, they are no where to be found.
If you would like to see basenjis run agility, there will be three basenjis at the Eukanuba Invitational in Orlando Dec. 16,17&18th at the Orange County Convention Center. There will also be a meet the breed booth and there will be basenjis doing conformation too.
I didn't realize she had done any testing on her dogs. Thanks for that information.
This is public info Sharron, very easy for you to look up and/or keep track of if you are concerned she is not testing enough. There are currently 27 OFA entries bearing the Avuvi name-of which I believe 7 (or so) are not Marie's.
As for the Avuvi carrier - it is via the linkage test so it too might be a clear via the direct.
Voodoo, with all due respect I suggest you continue your research. I have been a student of the breed since 1992 and everything I have ever read, seen in picture or watched in video shows the basenji as primarily a dog that drives medium to largish game into the hunters nets. Which would explain the nets the hunters are aleays carrying snd the bells the dogs are fitted with so the hunters can follow their progress.
I am sure when they are not belled they do hunt smaller game for their own survival but i do not beleive that was their primary hunting purpose.
The history of basenjis on the BCOA website is a good place to start. And their are a number of websites which have a lot of basenji history interspersed as well.
Page 255 of The African Giant copyright 1955 had this to say about the hunting dogs he calls basenjis which he was shown "When hunting they wear wooden bells tied round their loins so that they can be followed, since they can not bark. They do not lift their legs to urinate. When hunting big game, I was told their masters prime them with palm wine, but even without it they are most courageous and will attack gorilla or even elephant and lion or bush cow."
Patty-please note Chris referred to VTW as the primary founder, not THE founder. I think this is an apt descriptor since VTW did so much more long term then Mrs. Burns did.
I think there is a difference in temperament across the many ponds, just as there is a different style of dog due to the emphasis of different things, though the more exportation of the generic American dogs, soon we they will all look alike no matter what country you are in.
I agree with Pat, the stories we have 'cut our teeth' on in the USA talks about how terrible the temperaments were and how much improved they are. We have a number of judges from other countries who also say this to us. That said, I have also heard they are almost too nice now. Its a fine balance for sure.
As for top speeds of basenjis…there was a challenge in one of the 1960 Bulletins from some greyhound folks after some basenji folks claimed their basenji could outrun a greyhound. I have yet to find any conclusion in my reading. I personally doubt basenjis can get up to the speeds some people have touted. This would def. be something I would need concrete proof of before embracing it as fact.
As for jackrabbits, we have those here and as LisaV stated, it all depends on where the jacks are first espyed and how many 'senjis are on the prowl. If anyone googles basenji hunting there is a picture of I believe the Brauns and the many jacks (I believe that is the rabbit featured) they were able to take out wk their two basenjis. That's a lot of rabbits!
Sorry to be so late jumping back into the fray; I have been busy working, winning PACH points, trying for MACH double q's and getting one step closer, and only one step away, to V's bench championship! Whoo hoo.
Came across this today while updating my iPad. An interesting addition to the discussion of losing the breed's natural instinct.
Chris Maxka, basenji breeder since 1969 had this to say in an article for the (I believe) inaugural TMB (page6/7)
"Another thread of the "natural" basenji" discourse constantly refers to the basenji in the field, doing what it was bred to do, hunt. I would like to point out that basenjis were never imported as hunting dogs, despite what we know to be their considerable talent. They were imported as unique and beautiful, exotic companions, new and unusual additions to the known dog world. Veronica Tudor-Wiiliams, the primary founder of the breed was hoping the barkless feature would make the basenji an ideal apartment dog (well, we know that's not exactly where that one ended up). She saw the basenji as a unique companion, a pet, and therefore the more grace and exotic beauty, the better. Her original selections of imported stock were based on these features, not on hunting ability, and rightly so."
Not saying she is right or wrong, only sharing.
As for neglecting the hunter = fundamentally changing the breed, I am not convinced. We have been breeding towards a companion, show ring standard since the basenji was first exported in the mid 1930's. Luckily we have allowed the importation of native stock which means these hunting instincts one step out of Africa and are being infused into any pedigree that cares to incorporate them.
It is not my experience that the hunting instinct of the basenji is lacking, undeveloped perhaps but that is easily remedied if one chooses to do so - such as what Jeff is attempting. No dog comes out of the womb ready to hunt without any guidance be it from their older brethren or their human counterparts, but they do come out of the womb with the desire, the instincts and the ability to hone the craft. This is why I think the instinct is fine, they just need the fine tuning.
Because there is seemingly very little interest in live game hunting with basenjis (as Jeff says roughly 6 hunters amongst how many hundreds/thousands of owners) I can not see the demand for a hunting/working line of basenjis except by those who like to cross breed to them (Feist's and Decker terriers comes to mind) for hybrid vigor (though Decker has apparently created a new breed incorporating basenjis into the mix).
If we are truly concerned about loss of instinct, seems we as a united fancy need to find a venue that simulates what we think is their primary use in Africa (not how they fend for themselves which by the stories I have heard over the many years of AWOL domestics, is highly intact and is also evidenced by Pat's two killing off her squirrel population or mine who keep our quail and rabbit population in check) which is to drive game into nets, with coursing probably the best we have, or we need to create a venue that best simulates what we feel their true function is and encourage the fancy to participate or barring that I guess we will need to embrace the function the original founders wanted to create, which - if Chris is correct - is to be a unique companion animal; if they lose their instinct, well we have the founders to thank for not wanting the basenji to remain true to its African form.
I personally like a well balanced dog, structurally sound with a bit of an attitude who I know could survive quite fine on their own if necessary but has no need to. I am personally not interested in solely breeding for a unique companion animal which is probably why I want to maintain at least 30% native African in my line of dogs and why I focus more on the performance aspect of the breed.
As an aside, Feigh had a herding instinct test a few years ago, we received a number of compliments and was even encouraged to develop her and try for a herding title in one of the venues that allow various breeds. If only I had the time between breed, obedience, agility, and coursing I would give it, and tracking a more serious nod.
Maybe one day, after I win the lottery and move to a more hospitable area.
Some definite good writing Danielle.
Your descripiton of Tana kind of proves one of my points - a puppy mill rescue being able to show such natural talent - tells me a basenjis natural hunting instincts is vastly untapped vs missing altogether.
Question for y'all - what is a true African hunting basenji and how are they utilized by their humans in Africa (not just how they hunt to fend for themselves but how are they used by the natives to put food on the table?)
Seems if folks want to keep the breed true to their roots we would want to know how they hunt in Africa, yes? And then try not to lose that specific quality?
So, what is their main purpose? Are they pointers, retrievers, flushers, drivers or ???
Certainly much of what I have read, heard and seen in pictures and videos makes me think they were mainly used to drive cloven or hoofed game into the hunters nets. Would certainly explain the gourd bells tied to neck or groin.
Assuming this is correct, what would be the best venue to perpetuate this specific trait? Hunting them in the field similarly to a sporting breed (pointing, flushing and retrieving) or would herding be more realistic since driving is like uncontrolled herding? Or is there something else?
If the perpetuation of thier innate skill is the goal, then it seems concerned members of the fancy might want to consider which venue would best maintain it and petition the AKC or equivalent to allow the breed to participate in it. Having the AKC or the like involved would be a good way to get more of the fancy involved as well which would then create more people breeding with these goals in mind.
Real quick while I am on break, hopes this makes sense I am typing in a hurry.
Voodoo - I have only had one 100% domestic stock basenji since I have been in the breed; all of my other basenjis have been in excess of 30% New African and as high as 65% New African. My guys do not just chase furry critters around just for fun, they are dead serious and they trail, stalk, work in tandem and take down; I find their natural instincts to be quite intact.
As for the hunters amongst show dogs - that was a direct statement to Jeff who found two good hunting dogs from which to create a third even greater hunter - out of show stock. If he can find such wonderful hunters within the domestic population, I am certain anyone who has the desire and the ability to develop that side of their dog can also find great hunting dogs.
eeeefarms - my statement "I have personally found the breed to be whatever we want to make it good or bad." seems to be misunderstood.
I feel the basenji breed is truly an all around and very versatile breed of dog. If we want our basenji to be a hunter and we have the necessary skills and the desires, I find the breed to have the ability to be trained to be a hunter or agility dog, therapy dog, obedience dog, coursing dog, racing dog, show dog, yadda, yadda.
They are the perfect size and shape and have supreme intelligence and tremendous natural, and often times untapped instincts, all they need is a guiding and shaping hand to make them all that we want them to be. I do not feel that specific lines of basenjis needs to be created to corner a market on any certain thing; I feel each and every basenji already has what it takes. That is what I meant by the breed is whatever we want to make it.
If this is jumbled or makes little sense, let me know and I will clarify further when I have time, later tonight or perhaps tomorrow.
Just a few clarifications for those folks still interested in the thread and then I really should concentrate on other things, like work!
"Your key words are all obtained via an e-collar…".
Actually Jeff, I did not say that, what I said was - my concerns are puppy buyers might have expectations, and all of their expectations may be based on behaviors they see in your dogs, "behaviors obtained via the e-collar". I never said all of your dogs behaviors were/are obtained in that manner. I am sorry I was not more clear but I feel my concerns are still valid.
I don't expect you to agree and that is ok! Just as I do not expect you to feel the need to validate or rationalize why you use shock collars. I have already said, it is a personal choice.
"I use the collar to keep the dogs from getting into trouble and I have never implied or told you that I use the to get the "best" of of a dog. "
Sorry. I guess I misunderstood when you wrote:
"I also want to back up what another wrote that most working dog trainers use e-collars. That is the absolute truth. They do it because they work well an produce better dogs. I train dogs for life and death situations every day as do my peers. We all use e-collars."
I took this to mean a driving force for using the e-collar for you and your peers were to produce better dogs not to keep them out of harms way. My bad.
"You are presumptuous due to your emotional connection to the matter."
I am not the least bit emotionally connected to the subject of e-collars. I have used a shock collar, I feel they are a personal choice (hopefully a well trained one), just no longer my choice. I am not even really interested (as previously stated) about the use of them. My only concern was the use of e-collars to control the line of dog you listed as being for sale and how it could translate to those puppy buyers who might have unrealistic expectations of their new charges.
"There is a very real need for an inconspicuous, nimble, and silent dog that is very careful about how it approaches things in the explosives detection field."
As a total aside and not to create further discussion (i really do not have the time) but just an interesting (to me) observation - on one hand your use of the shock collar is to keep your dog from approaching danger while on the other you are training them to detect something that could blow them to smithereens.
Now then, I personally do not feel this breed is in danger of losing it's natural instincts as evidenced by the fact you could find hunters amongst show dogs. I have personally found the breed to be whatever we want to make it good or bad.
Good luck with your soon to be charges.
Training and working dogs in the US and in Africa are apples and oranges. You also make it appear as if the collars might be readily available there and that there is a choice in the matter. And if they were readily available there, they would probably be readily used, too.
Dogs are dogs, be it in US, Africa or Timbuktu. What humans want/expect from their dogs might be what differentiates us, as does the means in which we attain it. Somehow I have doubts natives would ever have need or desire to use a shock collar, except perhaps on each other. ;o)
I certainly can not see the need to fix something that has seemingly been working for hundreds of years and that something is the ability to work and hunt alongside their canine counterpart, without need of any artificial aid - sans a gourd bell around their neck or groin. If it can work for them, surely it can work for any one of us. And no, I am under no grand delusions they click/treat train their dogs or do not use correction based/physical means but for you to imply, Jeff that a shock collar is the only way to get the best out of a dog, makes me pause and think - how is it native populaces, without the benefits higher westernized education/training methods, can find a way to work alongside their dogs and we say its near impossible?
And really - the whole point being - native people do NOT have a choice, therefore they must find a way to be successful, which is much harder IMO, then slapping on a shock collar and compelling a dog to do ones bidding.
In truth I am not too interested in the use, or non use, of shock collars and certainly my post was not attacking, only musing my thoughts aloud while supporting Debra after your implication that a dissenting opinion must mean she/we are hysterical, insane, inexperienced and uneducated, of which we are none of the above.
Until such time they become illegal, shock collars are a personal choice best left up to (I hope) a trained individual and their dog. I have tried it, it is not for me, or my dogs, and I am still able to work my dogs and give them plenty of unrestrained freedom.
You also describe cheap, poorly engineered collars if a low setting was "unpleasant". Good quality collars are imperceptible at a low setting. I would be loathe to use what you did and never recommend them. However, this is a normal mistake for pet owners.
Gosh, I should hope I am a bit above the average pet person. ;O) That said - please do not tell my ex-husband his several thousand dollar investment for the e-collar and the intensive professional training was cheap! If he had known I could go to Petsmart, buy a $100 Innotek and learn for myself, he would flip a switch, even now.
The bulk of what I wrote about is ignored and you simply choose to capitalize on those things that you want to attack. If you were truly helpful, you might have addressed my question. Thank you for all of your help.
The bulk of what you wrote was discussing your working line of basenjis, a "line" of dogs that comes from show stock (ie non "working" basenjis) as a means of promoting your upcoming litter. I addressed what I felt about this; I felt the emphasis on showcasing a unique "working line" of basenjis is perhaps (yes? no?) a means to market them to hopeful buyers vs any real validity since they originate out of non-working show stock; to mean any breeder can produce a working, hunting, performing, social dog in the hands of a skilled and determined owner so really - is there a need for a distinct working line in our breed? A performance line? A coursing line? *I am not convinced there is.
I would worry puppy buyers might end up with expectations their basenjis will respond similarly to yours with very little effort or foundation, all based on behaviors they see in your dogs, obtained via the e-collar. When their basenji does not respond to their naive attempts at training and they turn to the e-collar for help and the dog does not respond as expected; i.e. they shut down, become hyper-vigilant, reactive/aggressive or quake in fear waiting for the next shoe to drop - then what?
I am certainly not saying your dogs react this way, but I have seen enough after effects of e-collar work (from novices to professionals) to know this can be an offshoot problem and that does concern me especially since you do seem to promote more of a positive/reward based technique/spin on your website which folks might assume you primarily use on your dogs to get the results you have.
Now then - if you were to fully train your basenjis and sell them as trained, working, adult dogs - that would be different as the buyer would be getting exactly what you are advertising and it would be up to them to maintain the dog at that level or to allow it to regress.
As for addressing your question re: what you should have tested for - this is your second litter Jeff, shouldn't you already know what you should have tested for?
Per the OFA you started out great with Axel - getting his CHIC (fanconi, hips, eyes, elbows, patellas and thyroid), then you kind of fell behind the eight ball with Aru (eyes and fanconi only prior to her litter) then even less with Kaden and Phoenix (fanconi only (at this time) for their litter).
I think starting with the tests you did with Axel prior to his litter would be a good start.
Now of course, with the DNA fanconi test available, ALL breeding/foundation animals - regardless of what their probable status was - should be re-tested so that is something else that should be done or perhaps you could just DNA all the get before they go to their new homes - then the parents would not need to be done, assuming you do not plan to breed them again. If you plan to breed again - they need to be tested because even all clear pups does not mean all clear parents.
Right now the BHE is supplementing retests at $15 a test so instead of $65 it only costs $50- a nice incentive if money is tight.
IMO, any testing is better than no testing and being open and honest about it, if not with us nosey nellies, then your puppy people, is the icing on the cake.
Again, good luck.
On the other hand, I see tons of dogs daily with no control who spend their lives behind doors or with all kinds of contraptions on that they hate and that make them crazy; reactive, neurotic beasts. IMO, this is how one kills their wonderfully wild companions with what they think is kindness.
I also want to back up what another wrote that most working dog trainers use e-collars. That is the absolute truth. They do it because they work well an produce better dogs.
A rather gross generalization, IMO.
Then to compare those who train using shock collars as having better, less neurotic dogs then those who do absolutely nothing with their dogs, is a bit of smoke and mirrors.
Any dog doing something mentally or physically stimulating other than being locked behind closed doors will be a better companion irregardless of whether or not a shock collar is being used.
Interesting that Native Africans do not use shock collars on their native dogs and yet work in a collaborative way with each other. In fact, I would hazard a guess there are numerous pariah dogs through out the world who do similar, without need of such a training aid; to imply one must use a shock collar to get results seems to be a validating statement only.
I agree with Debra, I have always felt shock collars to be a lazy mans way to get quick results, without a lot of effort. I know that is what I used mine for, when once upon a time my first basenjis wore shock collars. Not to train but to use in the same manner eeeefarms uses hers, to be able to go out into the desert and allow them the freedom they desired, while getting an instant recall.
As my training got better, the less I needed to rely on a shock collar - I don't think I have used one in 8-9(?) years and my current 5 basenjis (of which only two have ever seen a shock collar in their lifetime) run off leash, all the time.
As an aside, I shocked myself first before subjecting my dog to it and while the lowest setting is unpleasant, I can not imagine it to be very effective on certain, driven dogs; the higher level of shock needed, I personally found to be very uncomfortable and quite painful and thankfully not something I feel is necessary any longer for my dogs.
I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of creating real working basenjis in the true sense of the word if they can not work without artificial training devices encouraging them to do so or stifling their natural desires.
I find it interesting too your working dogs come from show stock, just as my highly driven and very successful performance dogs. It would seem anyone with the desire and the knowledge can turn any basenji into the working, performance or hunting dog they want - just as you and I did, so I have to wonder if this is just a marketing ploy vs. having any real meaning.
I guess that is why I have never marketed my line as a performance line, despite being on my third generation of multiple titled (and therefore proven) basenjis.
Sure, as a breeder and trainer, I can help start puppies in the right direction prior to placement, just as you can perhaps pick the best potential for working, but in the end if the owners do not have the skills or the desires we both have, no matter what line the dog came from, it will be nothing more than a loved pet or perhaps a neurotic dog as they try to use shock collars to obtain the results you have been able to obtain through years of experience.
As stated you have done the bare minimum of health testing; this lack of testing would have normally sent the forum wolves nipping at your heels but for some reason, everyone is keeping quiet?!
My hat is off to Debra for asking the hard questions and/or bringing it out in the open that perhaps the training methods on your website are not the only training methods you utilize. Or that more health testing would have been the responsible thing to do. Good on you for saying you will do further testing, I can not wait to hear the results. I hope for all your puppy people the results are favorable!
Having seen Debra in action more than once on this forum, her posts to you were quite benign, IMO and she seems to have legitimate concerns, which should be stated for any newbie considering your litter.
I do not think her intention is to single you out but to help educate those people coming to this forum and looking for their next basenji. And just because she does not agree with you, does not mean her sanity is questionable.
Good luck with your pups. I hope you get all that you desire in this breeding.
That is a bunch of balony that I would not confirm or deny we were the breeders.
The BRAT person I was in contact with told me when Dewgan's breeder was contacted, they denied they were the breeder. I have absolutely no reason on this Earth not to believe this person; they have no agenda and certainly have no reason to lie about what was or was not said.
This is what I wrote to another person on this forum. (I have been over your house a few times. )
Really? Was I home? And which house exactly would that be….? Located...? Looks like...? And what year was that again? This enquiring mind wants to know!
As for the expiration date of when being a responsible breeder ends - try never.
I see you have a passel of children (if your website is to be believed vs only being a marketing tool) - does your responsibility end at age 18, or do you think you might still be concerned for them and care for them should they fall on hard times until the day you die? There is no difference, IMO, for the 23 puppies you chose to bring into this world.
As for the person Pat mentioned earlier in this thread, I have known of him and have competed with, and against him, and his dogs (owned by others) in coursing for a very long time, much longer than you have apparently been in the breed or have owned dogs down from his dogs. We have had several discussions, he and I, about his dogs - about their odd looks (heads mostly), odd colors with many being pintos and dominant colors coming from recessive colored parents - which anyone worth their salt breeding animals knows can not happen, and in particular - their machine gun, rapid fire, incessant barking at the coursing line - a non basenji trait AND capability.
When I asked directly if his dogs were pure bred basenjis - after he asked to use my Dual Champion/LCM basenji on one of his bitches - he did not deny it nor was he surprised when I declined allowing him to use my male due to the integrity of his bitches pedigree. This was LONG before the whippet/basenji crosses he bred and registered as purebred basenjis with the AKC.
It is not the mixed breeding I have an issue with (though I personally do not condone breeding mixes for monetary gain when there are so many being killed daily) - it is the perpetuation of lies of breed purity, including registering them as purebred, that I have a problem with, which apparently continues to this day.
As for the rest of your posts - they do not merit a reply, nor my time formulating one, IMO. It is quite obvious to this reader you are a for profit, commercial breeder, with little to no interest in the betterment of the breed and little regard for the dogs in your care.
You are a sad fact of life in the world of dogs, which I can do little about, except hope to educate unsuspecting puppy people away from your door and your pocketbook. Thank you for the heads up.
Since I kind of opened a can of worms, so to speak, I thought I should expound a little. Speaking only for myself, I thought your posts reflected a person who is quite sensitive, perceptive and introspective of their community as well as the relationship between the community and the dogs that live there. You seemed willing to nurture and guide people about how to do the right things. No offense meant or intended to the men on this forum but these are qualities I normally associate with women, so I naturally assumed …..which we all know what that does. I was not disappointed to find there is a man with all of these terrific qualities, only surprised. :p
Take care and good luck with Ayo.
Congratulations to you, Ayo and Valentina.
I have to admit something, and please do not take this the wrong way, but for some reason, all this time reading your various posts - I never pictured you as a man, and a handsome one at that! :eek:
It was kind of shocking to find my minds eye was so very wrong!:)
Good luck at your next shows.
A BRAT representative has been notified of the breeder (not the person Pat alludes to but the dogs do come down from all of his "stock") who has been contacted and would not confirm or deny he was the breeder, but did refuse to claim Dewgan.
However through research I was able to find a FB page:
Showing the person BRAT contacted is in fact the breeder. And has bred their two "basenjis" five times (for fun and for pets per FB) and has a new breeding female out of a Champion male and a female from question heritage.
BRAT has been updated with all of this info.
I have been getting to know the BCOA through the BCOA archives, a fabulous endeavor that Donna DeFlorio (and all her helper bees) has been working hard at.
I am currently reading the 1968 BCOA Bulletin https://www.basenji.org/Bulletin/1968BN/BN1968MA.pdf and happened upon some letters to the editors in reference to someone who sent in a picture of the Liberian black dogs. I remembered seeing this same pic posted by Jo and thought folks would like to read even more about what others thought of them.
As I learn more, I will post more but hopefully folks can research stuff like this themselves using the archives - this is a great learning tool for members. There is always more than one side to every story and certainly more than one expert opinion. Both Coptokin and Horsley kennels were THE kennels of their time - one would hope they knew a basenji when they saw one. :-0
It's also interesting to read of all the political BS that occurred at that time and seems to continue to this very day.
Somethings never change, just the players involved. A life lesson to be sure.