I'm glad I have to wait because it gives me enough time to prepare and be fully ready.. I like things to make sense
You sound a lot like me. I loved the time I had to prepare (puppy proof) our place before Kipawa finally came to us forever. 🙂
Why Do Puppies Cost So Much?
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That reminds me I just found out about Norwegian lundehunds, I had never heard of them, apparently they have just been accepted by the akc, they have six toes!!! Really cool the way their feet look!
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here is a picture of their feet.. thats so weird!!!
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wow, weird..for sure.
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You left out the cost for showing and proving the value of your bitch, raising her, feeding her… I know of few breeders who do more than break even if they are lucky. Yeah if you have a dog that throws a HUGE litter, you do okay. Until something happens. My friend spent over $5,000 on a litter that came 4 days early and lost all of them even with taking to the top veterinary hospital in her state for intensive care. That was just the medical, never mind all the previous expenses of getting her pregnant etc.
On the Norwegian, its really a form of dew claws. Some dew claws are unformed, others make up almost functional toes. Lots of dogs have double dew claws, btw. Some REQUIRE you not remove them. My first rottie litter had major double front AND back. That was 20 yrs ago. My vet tells me she STILL has nightmares are doing their dewclaws, lol.
http://www.messybeast.com/poly-species.html
The Norwegian Lundehund must have at least six toes and eight pads on the fore paws; five toes must rest on the ground. On the hind legs there must be at least six toes, four of which must rest on the ground. The toes have extra joints to aid it in its traditional job of puffin-hunting, for which it needs to climb cliffs.
In the Beauceron, the double hind dewclaws should form thumbs and be close to the foot to provide a larger weight-bearing surface.
The Catalonian Sheepdog's double hind dewclaws must be joined together and joined to the first (inner) toe by a membrane (webbing).
In the Iceland Shepherd Dog, hind dewclaws are essential and double dewclaws are preferred.
The Briard's double hind dewclaws must be located close to the ground. In several other breeds, hind dewclaws are permitted e.g. Great Pyrenees (double), Portuguese Sheepdog (single/double), Cao Fila de Sao Miguel (single), Cao de Castro Laboreiro (single/double on both front and hind feet), Saint Bernard, Pyreenees Mastiff (double preferred over single), Estrela Mountain Dog (single/double), East Siberian Laika, Anatolian Shepherd Dog (double).
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No… I don't agree with the cost of showing... that should not be and I have never taken that into consideration with the cost of raising a litter. While I agree it is important to show or do performance events... that is a cost out of my pocket...
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Interesting, it's amazing the variety of dog breeds and types. I have been looking at different breeds online all night, and I feel great because , honestly, although I love all dogs , I reallyi think the basenji is the coolest dog there is!!! I think next year I will get a second!
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Pat I didn't mean as general cost, but many puppy buyers have no idea the expenses you have gone to before you ever get to the breeding point. They think you are making hand over fist money.
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Pat I didn't mean as general cost, but many puppy buyers have no idea the expenses you have gone to before you ever get to the breeding point. They think you are making hand over fist money.
Totally agree with you
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I don't really think about the cost of showing my dogs into it. For pet buyers, all the titles and accomplishments don't really mean much. I just count those expenses as me enjoying my dog. It is also why I don't consider the cost of my time to raise the puppies because I enjoy them and though they are hard work, it is a labor of love. I also find it just too time consuming to try to figure out the extra PG&E money, paper towels, wear and tear on my furniture, the amount of food they chow down on, etc. If people don't get the idea from the broad strokes of what it costs then I doubt showing it down to the penny would make difference.
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Hi, i have a question, every time that a pair of dogs will be bread need to be tested for fanconi, hips, eyes and so on? i was thinking that just one time on the life of the dogs.
So i see the chart and im wondering why fanconi need to be test every time.. and hips and so on. thanks in advice
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Hi, i have a question, every time that a pair of dogs will be bread need to be tested for fanconi, hips, eyes and so on? i was thinking that just one time on the life of the dogs.
So i see the chart and im wondering why fanconi need to be test every time.. and hips and so on. thanks in advice
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eye testing is yearly the others are one time for the most part, except for thyroid. Reputable breeders only breed 2-3 times on a bitch, not 6 or more as puppy mills do.
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here is a picture of their feet.. thats so weird!!!
Those look like furry chicken feet!~:eek:
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I agree with Lisa Stewart, we usually only breed our girls 2-3 times and sometimes only once. The testing for hips and fanconi are a one time cost but I notice several other costs are left out. Yes our time is worth something but admittedly we all do this for the love of it. But there are many other costs.
Whelping equipment; whelping box 50-200, bedding and pads 50-100, warming discs or beds 25-50, puppy bowls and toys over 8-12 weeks 50-100, food (goats milk alone for pups is up to $5 a quart) puppy litter 50-100 over 8-12 weeks, rise in electricity keeping the house 75-80 degrees first two weeks and just below that for another 4 weeks along with additional laundry 100-200.
There are many other little expenses that never seem to get considered, this year a pup at 7 weeks slightly ruptured his umbilical and required a minor repair it all went smoothly but that kind of incident can cost between 200-500 and he was in a litter of 3 pups. Or a pup that we had years ago that had a minor eye issue that required antibiotics and a opth vet visit again 100-300.
At my house we encourage people to visit constantly to socialize puppies, I have never added up the cost for coffee and often snacks we put out while visiting but all those little things add up.
Include with all this training equipment, tunnels, puzzles, clickers mats and the list just keeps growing, puppy chews and lets not forget spray bottles which always seem to need replacing.
So often when people say well you bred your male and female and they had all health testing done previous to this litter so you must have come out ahead, I can take it even futher than Lisa Voss did. Anyone who does this for profit is either breeding a large number of dogs, the same dogs multiple times or just doesn't put time and care into raising pups. I suppose it would be like asking someone to add up how much it cost to raise their kids.
I spent more money than I charged in supplies and travel expenses for two adult boys I placed a couple years ago. But wouldn't trade their home for anything in the world. Kevin always tells people, the price of the dog is the least amount you will spend over the life of your dog. If you aren't sure about that now what amount will cause you to give up the dog later?
Therese and Kevin -
@Therese:
Kevin always tells people, the price of the dog is the least amount you will spend over the life of your dog. If you aren't sure about that now what amount will cause you to give up the dog later?
Therese and KevinBang on! The initial output is the cheap part of raising a happy and healthy pet. And may I say that the list of your costs just shows the amount of dollars, care and energy that goes into your lovely litters.
For the new owners, shots, possible neutering/spaying, toys, vet visits and procedures, x-rays, eye checks, Fanconi tests and quality food just keep adding up.
If both parties are not willing to put in the time and dollars, IMO they should leave the breeding and dog ownership to someone else.
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I know that this subject is sometimes a sensitive one but having just purchased a little pup, let me offer another point of view.
First, when purchasing anything of value I always like to think I am getting my moneys worth. Sometimes I think people may take it personally when a negotiation occurs around a pet. I am not talking about the rudeness of buyers (or sellers for that matter) but just a small amount of indignation as to why one would even try to negotiate. Having said that, I believe you can negotiate in good faith and still not harm the transaction or the process of selecting a pet.
I personally think that there is nothing wrong with this negotiation as it creates a wonderful time for the new basenji owner to understand what owning a dog like this means (or being owned by the dog perhaps?)
Having run through the numbers before, I quickly surmised that no one breeds basenjis to make serious money. The real costs of breeding prevent that from the start.
Because basenji owners know this and potential buyers do not, it sets the stage for buyers to "challenge the price and breeders to get frustrated" as Pat states.
In all honesty, people who "bargin" just dont understand that its not a "financial transaction" for the breeder for if it were the asking price would be around $2500 for a basenji.
I have real reservations about the breeder we got Nahla from and I doubt we would recommend them to others. Having said that if I could have negotiated a lower price I would have. Maybe because I would have felt a lot better giving my money to someone who I could have recommended.
I believe that anybody who takes pride in what they do knows how valuable the service they provide can be. I dont think responsible Basenji owners are any different. The value of my services are questioned many times by new clients. I use it as a teaching opportunity and explain the difference between my self and my competition. Clients that "get it" are those I wish to business with. Those that dont, well we are better off without each other. I believe the same holds true for potential new basenji owners.
I really admire the breeders and basenji owners on this forum, I feel we are all trying to promote actions that are good for our furry friends. It is not lost on me that above all else a good breeder wants to make sure his or her pups are placed with love and care. -
jflowe22, I think we are seeing this differently. I am also a consumer and want to get my money's worth. But instead of attempting to negoiate the price down maybe I prefer owners that want to know what they get for their price.
Kipawa has a sister "Scarlet" her family is a young couple that does not have a ton of money and they told me their famly members thought the price for a basenji was silly when they could get a pup from the pound for so much less.
Walter's explanation to his family was this, I get the experience my breeder offers to help me in the future, training that a first time basenji owner may not know how to start, healthy breeding parents, healthy puppies, a starter kit of supplies, vet check, opth vet check. That's what you pay for, had he been considering negotiation of a lower price it would be more like asking a hair dresser to lower their price unless they can prove they do a great cut, or asking a house painter to lower their price unless they can prove they will do a good job.
My pups are placed on a two week trial return no questions, your house painter won't offer that and neither will your hairdresser. So when I look at someone wanting to pay less I think they may not realize how much work goes into raising a pup, like Kipawa (Fran) says this maybe a person that needs to reconsider getting a pup.
I encourage people to research breeders and find one they connect with because the best resource for you and your pup is likely to be your breeder, if you get a good breeder you can talk to you really can't put a price on that. A good breeder will help you and if they can't they will help you find someone who can because they have you and your pups best interest at heart.
I certainly don't take it personally when people ask about price but it does send up red flags if they are interested in price first and how I raise and breed second. I even had one person say she liked having more than one pup to chose from because it made her feel she could have her own way. My pup wasn't one of her choices, she was very nice but I think she wanted a pup that matched her interior design of her home, I still occasionally get an email asking advice from her, she never seems to ask her breeder but I continually encourage her to do so. So she got her own choice and a better price but guess who she calls for help.
Therese -
Hello Therese,
I dont think we see it all that different. I concur with everything that you said. I was just trying to point out that there is often a disconnect between buyer and seller which is sometimes interpreted as somehow caring less for the pup.
You said that you prefer owners who want to know what they are getting for their money. In a perfect world I would have to agree, but then again…the world is far from perfect. Most people incorrectly assume that Basenji owners breed basenjis for profit.(Why else would they do it?) Accordingly they feel justified in questioning the price.
I can tell you that my experience with our breeder has me feeling this way. But I also see the many terrific breeders on this forum that can never "break even" considering the time, costs, and emotional attachment they share with their pups. Many buyers dont see this (in my experience) or dont know this.
Given the time, love, caring, effort, and hard costs of breeding basenjis you would probably be justified in asking $5000 per pup, would you expect people to just pay it after you explained what they are getting?
People ask questions. And when it comes to money they ask lots of questions. And they will try to pay as little as possible.
I see how much it costs to breed a basenji the right way.
Here is another way to look at it. Should two different breeders be paid the same amount when one of them clearly puts so much more into it (time, money, and love)? I would have liked to pay our breeder less than what we did because as I see some of the breeders websites on this form I know there is a difference.
$1200 may sound like a lot to some people, but after its explained to them why its more than reasonable you basically have two types of people, reasonable and all the people who are not."So when I look at someone wanting to pay less I think they may not realize how much work goes into raising a pup, like Kipawa (Fran) says this maybe a person that needs to reconsider getting a pup."
So if you asked $5000 and they wanted to pay less you could form an opinion as to what type of owner they would be?
If after they are educated and they still want to haggle about price I would then agree.Finally, responsible breeders should be rewarded with knowing that their pups are placed in loving homes that will be able to care for their basenjis. They should also be compensated fairly for their costs, but they will never break even on the true cost of breeding basenjis. I believe we draw the same conclusions but prehaps we took two different paths to arrive there!
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jflowe22, I do agree with you that people should get value. I was mostly pointing out my personal difference for when it bothers me that people want to negoiate price.
When we bought our first basenji I had lost my 17yr old doxie the night before. I had planned to meet several breeders at my first dog show (ever!) and showed up swollen eyed with a still crying husband in tow to purchase a basenji puppy. We thought what better place than a dog show to buy a new puppy. When I discovered that is not where you buy puppies I did find a litter there for grading with some breeders, I had already researched the breed and met a couple breeders so I talked the breeders into considering us for one of the pups there at the show.While they were deciding on the best home for the pups amoung the people lined up to get them I honestly pulled the breeder aside and said "I don't want to offend, but I'm willing to offer more money, I then told her I was willing to double the price if it would help me get one of her puppies". I probably would have sawed off my own foot if it would have helped.
They sold me our girl Luci (their usual price) but I think mostly because they couldn't stand to watch my husband cry any longer. We had to promise to show her…boy if only we had known then. Sixteen years later we have a house full and can't imagine life without them. The money I used to purchase her was literally the least amount I spent on her over her life, we lost her last August.
So call me crazy but if I found a car for $5000 and wanted it there comes a point you have to trust what you see is worth the price. I guess our difference is negoiating sounds to me like looking for a deal, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean. In any case it sounds like your girl is lucky to have found you.
Therese -
I think what happens many times is that when a person looking for a puppy goes to a "less than responsible" breeder that is only in it for the money, they think "making an offer" comes to mind. Mostly because with these breeders you do not get the impression that these pups and the breeding of these pups are part of their lives, not just a way to get a few bucks. If you watch many of the ads on Puppyfind.com or some of the other sites, you will begin to see this time of year "reduced price". These are the breeders that now are starting to worry that they will be stuck with pups from these litters and no one to buy them. Keeping them is now going to cost them money, since 99% of BYB breeders (or for profit) sell the pups and plan on them leaving at 8 wks (earliest by law that you can ship a puppy). Most of these pups have only been really weaned for a couple of weeks and are not eating that much… but as they get older, they eat more, need Vet care, so therefore cost more to keep then to reduce the price and "move" the merchandise.
You will not find that with a responsible breeder, as responsible breeders know that if they are not sold, they stay... no bargin basement prices just to move them out as the home is the most important, not just getting rid of them to make room for next years breedings. BYB begin to panic when the pups are 12 to 16wks old because they are not as cute as an eight wk old puppy... Less likely to win in the "cute factor".
I too get a bit of my hackles up when the first question is price, especially when followed by, "I will take a runt, is that cheaper?" Or "I only want a pet". Many times too, people become offended when you explain that the breeder usually picks the puppy that would be best suited.
